D8B Booting Partially

[markd]

I have purchased an old D8B that I am trying to get working for home recording with very little prior D8B experience.
The software is version 3 which boots to the mixer session screen on the PC and the D8B console shows plug-ins being loaded up to four "Gain 0.0 dB" displayed, then the whole system stops responding. No buttons on the console work and the PC does not respond to mouse or keyboard input (like it is waiting for something to acknowledge/complete before it continues). I am using a keyboard with a 5 Pin DIN adapter as I did not get the original keyboard and I tried to press Del to get into the BIOS at boot and it ignored the keyboard input - not sure if this is normal. All faders reset to 0 as part of the boot sequence (no sticky faders). Can you please advise what approach I can take to sorting this out? System feels close to working correctly. Lights and display on console work, PC boots and goes to session screen showing all controls and faders but mouse and keyboard are being ignored. I would really appreciate any pointers on how to approach this issue? Thanks

[Y-my-R]

Looks like you signed up to this forum back in 2011 and this is your first post.

Does that mean that you have been using a D8B for some of this time, and you just got another non-working one that you want to get to work? Or have you never really used a D8B, before?

I'm asking, so I know if I need to check super-basic stuff, such as if the 25-pin "Console Data" cable is connected between the D8B console and rack unit?

Also, is there any error message shown on the PC-display after the console booted to show "Gain" on its built in display? Something like "DSP: last status not ready"?
(Depending on the error, this could point to the 25-pin console data cable not being connected).

What happens when you move a fader or knob on the console? Does anything move on the screen connected to the rack unit? I think if the rack/console communication doesn't work at all, the faders usually snap to the bottom. So, if they go to the "unity level" marking, then I think the rack unit and console should be communicating.

You say you have a 5-pin keyboard connected. Have a close look at the num-lock/caps-lock LEDs on it, when you power the rack unit on. Do these LEDs flash for a split second, shortly after powering the rack unit on? They should. If they don't, I don't think the rack unit "sees" the keyboard. Is there anything worth mentioning about the keyboard you're using? Funny adapter, etc?

Do you have a mouse connected via the PS/2 port on the D8B? Is the PS/2 port on your unit next to the larger 5-pin DIN connector for the keyboard, or is there a separate card-slot plate with the connector on it? (The older mainboard type has it one way, and the newer mainboard type has it the other way). If it's an optical mouse, does it "light up" it's optical element when powering the D8B on? Do you know if the mouse you connected normally has a visible such light? If it does, but doesn't light up when connected to the D8B, then it also doesn't "see" it right. Maybe wrong connection, or again a funny adapter or something?

When "Gain" is shown on the built in D8B display, I assume nothing happens when you try to move one of the encoders right below?

For starters, lets just make sure that all these connections are right - especially the 25-pin "console data" cable, and check if the caps-lock buttons flash briefly on the keyboard or if the mouse lights up when powering on... they should.

[markd]

Thanks Y-my-R for your response to my post.
You are right - I signed up in 2011 when I started looking thinking about setting up a home recording studio and I did half a dozen posts but they do not seem to be on the forum anymore. I have no experience with D8B, but I am an electronics engineer (retired) and finally have time to finish off my studio. I purchased a D8B second hand about 10 years ago and I did see it running before buying it. I am now seriously trying to get this unit working. I have also purchased a second non-working D8B for spares.

The console data cable is connected and is working OK.
There are no error messages on the PC, it runs through to the session screen with all the faders etc. and the mouse works for 1-2 secs then locks up. The keyboard does blink once at boot but when it gets to the final screen, caps lock etc. does not work and the PC does not take any input from the keyboard. Mouse cursor is locked in middle of screen. Nothing moves on the screen when moving faders or knobs on the console.

I am using a keyboard adapter 6 pin mini to 5 pin DIN. I am not sure if this is dodgy or not. I am purchasing an old 5 pin DIN AT keyboard to try so the adapter is not required - just in case.

Mouse is a separate plate with the connector on it. Motherboard is "NEW" type I believe - CB50-BX. Mouse works briefly and then stops. Mouse lights up. I think the system is ignoring mouse and keyboard as it is waiting for something to complete, although there are no error messages displayed.

"Gain" shown on built-in display does not change when tweaking any knobs on console.

Data cable is OK and comms is working as I can see all the plug-ins load etc. up until the "Gain" display. Console looks to be fine - lights, faders, knobs, display etc. I feel like it might be software related e.g. corrupted file somewhere.

I will buy another keyboard and check it is not a problem (get rid of the 5 pin DIN adapter). As previously stated, I cannot get the PC to go into BIOS mode (pressing Del) at boot. It just powers through the boot & software execution and says the keyboard has been "inited".

Thanks for your ongoing assistance with this.
Regards

[Y-my-R]

Sounds like you knew about the D8B before I did, but I probably logged more hours on it in the meantime, haha. I guess that’s both, a “Welcome back!” and a “Have a great start!” In your specific case - ha

Hmm… I could imagine a couple of possible reasons for this behavior. I would:

1. Check the BIOS settings first. But of course that means finding a way to get in there… I think that the keyboard you have “should” work with the adapter you have, if the “Lock” LEDs flash after powering on. It’s not a keyboard for a less common language or something, right?

I’m pretty sure this is totally redundant if you’re not new to accessing the BIOS, but just to make sure: Don’t keep holding down the key to access the BIOS. Maybe wait 3-4 seconds after powering on the D8B, then repeatedly tap that key, maybe every 2 seconds or so. I say “that key” because I don’t recall for sure, which one the D8B asks for, and if it’s the same for the “old board” and the “new board" - I haven’t done this in some time. But it should say on-screen what key to push (aka tap repeatedly). Probably “Del” but could be F8. (For some BIOS types it’s F1 or F2… but I don’t think for the D8B… whatever it says on the screen).

2. As you pointed out, it could also be a problem with the OS. At that point, you’d have to decide if you want to stick with OS3 (that needs no authorization for the OS itself… but you’d need to try to get all the plug-in auth keys from the system before you re-install, if you want to stick with OS3), or if you want to install OS5.1 and authorize via hack (incl. all plug-ins unlocked).

3. It could very possibly also be the commonly necessary “ribbon-cable-reseat” that these 20+ year old units usually need by now, if that hadn’t been done with that unit, before. Especially if it’s been sitting unused for a long time… and deep cleaning (ipa or good electronics cleaner) the contacts while at it (or even pry the connectors apart a bit and put some cleaning solution on the “spikes” in there, before clamping the connector back together, as Phil C from this forum suggests… and I’m sure some units DO need this!).

IMO, it could be any of the above 3… but I’d approach it in the order that “should” be easiest… so, BIOS settings/access, first. Re-doing the OS isn’t bad if you’re familiar with cloning hard drives or restoring images… but it can be kind of daunting if you’re “not a computer guy” (which is totally fine, of course, if so… if it’s easy or difficult kind of depends on that, though, I think). Re-seating the ribbon cables takes a lot of time, and can be annoying, because some spots are REALLY hard to reach (or would require a lot of disassembly).

I just thought of a 4th possible reason: Clock issues (which is often times what goes wrong with bad ribbon connections, too). Which clock card do you have in your D8B? The stock Mackie Clock card (usually hidden under a metal cover - but make sure it’s there!), or the Apogee Clock card?

If it’s the Apogee card, I’d also recommend to take a good look at the solder spots for the caps on that card (especially if it has the older, yellow ones). I had two such Apogee cards, where one lost one such yellow cap, completely without any known interaction… while the other was barely hanging on on one side… and I was fighting odd clock issues and lock-ups, back when I was trying to get the desk to work, when I only had those cards (and stupidly, never took a VERY CLOSE look at them, early on).

Anyway… still, BIOS first… if that doesn’t work, I’d at least “look” at the clock card, since that’s quick and easy to do, to see if you see any bad solder spots, etc. I’d save the other 2 bigger tasks for later, for now

Best of luck!

[markd]

Thanks for the continued follow-up - I really appreciate it.
Will do. It is Del key according to screen at boot. Not going in to BIOS at all, so I agree this is the first thing to check.
Waiting on another keyboard to be sure it is not that, and then I need to get into the BIOS as you suggested.
Will let you know progress soon.

Btw, I am a computer guy but not a D8B guy, so imaging disks etc. is not a huge issue. I have ordered an IDE to USB cable so I can use my laptop to backup the disk and re-image etc as required. I am thinking about getting a CF drive and installing to make playing about with D8B software easier. What do you think about that idea? Also, do you suggest going version 5.1 now or stay on v 3 until I get the problems sorted? Cheers

[csp]

Markd,

Welcome back to the Forum.

Just to add to Y-my-R's (a d8b God !!!!!) post, after 20 years I would definitely change the BIOS battery, but you will need to re-do the bios after the change --- be sure to use the correct BIOS set-up for your motherboard, as detailed in the Database.

Also in the Fourm's Database you will find under "Photos" images of both the new and old motherboards so you can easily determine which board you have --- note the battery position to determine your motherboard.

Also after 20 yrs I would definitely be underaking a complete ribbon cable clean with something like DEOXIT or Isoptopyl alcohol as well as removing all of the plugin cards and giving both the card's pins and the card's socket a good clean.

If you have a week to spare, you could read my super long posting called something like "Not Quite the end of the saga" as it details almost every fault that a d8b can have.

I have just looked up my long post (from memory something like 60 pages and 1.5mil views and about 650 posts) and discovered that when ititially starting a new topic I incorrectly typed the word "quite" as "quitet".

By the way, the reason your previous posts have disappeared is that they would have been on the original Mackie sponsered forum that has long gone hence this new forum.

Good Luck with the desk.

David

[Y-my-R]

I’m a convinced agnostic, but I’m pretty sure that no “D8B god” exists - haha!

I just started on PCs from that era (ca, 1995-2003… aka BIOS… pre EFI), so I remember that side of things pretty well. For the innards of the console, beyond making sure what should have contact really HAS good contact (and what shouldn’t, doesn’t)… and settings… like the BIOS, yes… I don’t really know more than “common knowledge” about that era of computers, as used in the D8B system.

So, I think I already spilled most of what I know here… but we can dive in, if necessary

Sometimes the BIOS can get a bit stubborn, and even IF the battery still might have enough juice to store the settings - it can be a good idea to remove it and let the mainboard sit with no power and no battery for a while, to let it rest. At least 15 min, I’d say… but if there’s no improvement, I’d let it sit with no battery and disconnected from the wall over night (as silly as that sounds).

If the battery has never been (or not within the last 3-5 years) been replaced, then it would definitely be a good idea to replace the battery while you’re at it, to avoid new problems soon down the road, even IF you could get into the BIOS with the current battery and have it remember the settings… if the battery fully dies after all, soon, youd’ have to repeat this whole procedure.

Then, after hopefully being able to access the BIOS, you’d re-do the BIOS settings. And yes… if the PS/2 mouse connector is on a separate PCI slot plate, then it should be the “new” board.

I think the question to either start out with OS3 and the old hard drive, or OS5.1 and ideally with an externally accessible CF card, is mostly of financial nature.

If you want to be sure you can get the D8B running without investing any money into it at first, then you could just clone OS3 as it is right now (to an image, as a backup), re-install from the floppies (if you have them or can write images), and just try if the mixer is “back” before investing into a CF setup (which isn’t THAT expensive, though).

So, someone cheap like me, would first try if a unit runs “as-is” with minimal interaction and as far as possible, no money upfront, haha. So, new battery (thanks csp), then cloning the “old" IDE drive via a USB adapter as a backup.
Then restoring arjpesen’s clone of a working OS 5.1 installation back to the D8B’s internal IDE drive “for free” (as long as you have the necessary Macrium Reflect cloning software or trial version of it, and finish the project during the trial period).

Also, I think OS5.1 requires at least 64 MB of RAM to run well, though. How much RAM do you have installed (for such a “free” OS 5.1 test)?

Otherwise, if you’d rather do it once with the final hardware, than do a trial-run with the existing hardware and available options, then I’d highly suggest to go with a CF card and OS5.1/hack… then you’re only limited by the FX (and I/O) cards you have installed… not by whatever add-ons the original owner of the desk spent extra money on, in form of add-on FX plug-in licenses, etc’.
If “unlucky,” the original owner might not have bought anything extra, and only get the basics with OS3, with none of the 3rd party plug-ins available then, and after.

With 5.1 and the (easy enough) hack, you’d get all the plug-ins you have FX cards for (ideally MFX and UFX, to get ALL plug-ins). To do the hack, you pretty much just replace the executable file with a hacked version available on this forum (easy search, but I can find the link, if it doesn’t pop up easy enough.

So… again, if cheap like me, I’d be prepared to do the whole exercise twice… once “for free” with existing hardware (clone old drive incl. boot sector as a backup, then restore OS5.1 image to “spinning” IDE drive), and after then troubleshooting the boot-up hang with that “fresh install”, I could still decide if I want to spend money on the CF card/adapter, in case the whole thing turns into a similar saga/fiasco like in csp's referenced case (…a god would have just revived that unit… but it’s still as good as dead, despite of my best efforts to help… ha!)

Anyway… that’s my 2 cents… but what I’m talking about above can also easily turn into many evenings of tinkering and trial and error… so… many of us here have been there, and we’re here to try to help, if getting stuck!
(And all of them really nice, modest people, from all I know… hopefully I’m not underestimating anyone here drastically (“gods”?!?)

[markd]

Thanks David and Y-my-R.
Quick update:
Received a keyboard purchased online today with 5 pin DIN (i.e. cut out the keyboard adapter).
PC immediately let me go into BIOS upon boot.
Set all BIOS settings as per documents on this forum for NEW board.
32MB Ram installed (one stick) in NEW motherboard with D8B OS 3 on HDD.

Rebooted after saving BIOS settings and verifying they were saved - and same result.
Keyboard blinked, system booted and loaded plug-ins (as per the built-in display on the console until it got to the "Gain" screen) and I was able to move the cursor right across the screen with the mouse, but then everything froze as if waiting for something to happen. Console non-responsive, PC showing session screen with frozen mouse cursor and numlock/capslock not changing when pressed on keyboard.

I have an Apogee card installed (not connected to anything external).
I have tried booting the D8B PC connected to a second console (that spare console is not guaranteed to be working) and it does exactly the same thing as described here, so I am inclined to believe the main problem is NOT caused by console at this stage.

I have ordered an IDE to USB2 cable adapter so will backup the HDD using Macrim as soon as that arrives.
Also decided to bite the bullet and ordered an IDE/CF adapter and have a CF card and USB CF Reader to play with the Mackie software.

I will pickup some Deoxit D5 this week ready for the plunge into the console cable re-seating/cleaning once I get a bit further in.

Will provide a further update when I have more to report......
Cheers & thanks again.....

[markd]

Oh and btw, I replaced the CMOS battery on the motherboard as suggested to ensure saved BIOS settings were not lost.

[Phil.c]

I will pickup some Deoxit D5 this week ready for the plunge into the console cable re-seating/cleaning once I get a bit further in.

When you do the ribbon connector cllean, I would suggest doing the ribbon lift off the spikes procedure just incase the copper wires are tarnished.