Cold boot OK. Warm boot fails (no rude solo/display). Caps?

[Y-my-R]

As hinted at in a few of my responses to other posts, my own D8B is acting up again, lately.

Starting my D8B “cold” after it’s been sitting for some hours, has typically worked well on my D8B (with only occasional “pulsing” issues when turning it on when cold, in the morning).

More recently, though, it started to ALWAYS refuse to start up when “warm.”
If I have to restart the D8B for some reason after it’s been on for even just a few minutes, I ALWAYS have to let it cool down again, or it won’t boot (pulsing meters/faders).
When it’s only been on for a few minutes, it doesn’t take long to let it cool down. But if it’s been on for longer, like a few hours, it won’t cool down enough for maybe another hour or so, before I can try to boot it up again (..and each attempt where it still doesn’t work, will set me back another 10-20 minutes, at least).

…and on days where I decided to make my D8B part of my workflow for some reason, this wastes a lot of my time and I make no progress.

When I first noticed that it started doing this when warm, I still always turned almost everything else in my system on, before I turned on the D8B. Including my Word Clock generator (Lucid GENx192), that the D8B gets its external word clock from. So word clock was always already being sent to the D8B when turning it on.

The database suggests to fully boot the D8B, BEFORE sending external word clock to it… and now I understand why. When trying such a failing “warm” boot, like in the scenario above, the meters on my D8B would pulse and the faders would twitch slightly at the same time.
However, while it’s “pulsing” like that, if I turn the word clock generator off, the pulsing stops.

So, this suggests to me, that the “pulsing” I’m seeing on the meters and faders, is a reflection of the incoming word clock, that the D8B can somehow not process right at that time.
Since then, I kept my word clock generator off, until the D8B is fully booted and I see the blinking questionmark (aka “no clock”). THEN I turn the word clock generator on.

Interestingly, when doing it this way, the meters also no longer “flash” randomly, towards the end of the bootup sequence, just before the mixer is ready to use. Many of them typically “flashed” once very briefly, when reaching that point during booting – but no more, since the word clock generator isn’t on at that point.

Keeping the WC-Generator off, does NOT fix the warm boot situation, though. With it off, instead of seeing pulsing meters and faders, the desk just stays completely dark. The built-in display in the upper right stays dark, and the rude solo light doesn’t come on. (I can turn the pulsing on-and-off in that state, by turning the word clock generator on or off).

Occasionally, during a warm boot with no WC applied, where the display stays off with no rude solo light… both these things suddenly come online, around the time the rack computer monitor has booted to the point where it shows the graphical “D8B 5.1 Real Time Operating System” splash screen. During a “normal” boot, both the display and rude solo light used to come on pretty much immediately, after flicking the power switch to the “on” position. So, now, IF they decide to start working, they do so maybe around 30-40 seconds after flicking the power switch.
But most of the time, they will NOT come on late, but just stay off when the D8B is warm, and the computer boots as far as it can (DSP card not ready), while the console still stays completely dark with no sign of life (unless I turn the WC generator on… then it pulses).

So, what could this be? I know that the “rail caps” symptoms are very similar (pulsing… not sure if there’s an audible pulse as well, since I NEVER turn the speakers on that early in the boot process)… but I think that usually happens even on internal clock, if those rail caps go bad. Since it only pulses when I turn on the external click, I’m kinda thinking that it might be something else?

Although I do suspect that it’s “capacitors” of sorts, that don’t buffer the necessary power when the unit is warm, somehow. So, maybe it WILL be a recap job of sorts… but I’m hoping that this might just be a few caps in the power supply, and not an endless number of rail caps across various circuit boards inside the console...?!

Unfortunately, my D8B has been living inside an Argosy desk, and the cables running past it in the pack, just got more and more over time, so I can’t even get to the BFC anymore, without some major effort (arm rest in the front of the Argosy desk out, push the mixer forward to clear some space in the back… then, in rather restricted space in the back, reseat cards or the BFC, etc.).
Getting “inside” this D8B, to do any sort of ribbon cable re-seat, will probably take about an hour of preparations, before I can even start taking the screws out on the bottom…

…that’s why I thought I’d ask around here, before just “popping the lid” and look for leaky capacitors or something, inside the D8B…

Does anybody have an idea what these symptoms could be indicative of?

Unfortunately, I can’t even say “F-it, I’ll just use the D8B as a controller via the ProBox), because when the console stays dark like that, it also won’t come alive when trying to boot with the ProBox connected. (Although similar to how the display and rude solo light came on late a few times, when booting warm, trying to boot with the ProBox connected also caused the display to turn on VERY late on the console, although this shouldn’t be dependent on where in the bootup stage the D8B computer is, since the ProBox only takes power from that, and doesn’t care about what’s going on inside that computer, “data-wise.”

Any hints, ideas or suggestions? Thanks very much in advance!

[Y-my-R]

I booted my D8B for the first time, today, just now, and it did the "dark display, no rude solo light" even when cold-booting right now.

I then counted the seconds, and about 35 seconds in, the display suddenly came to live, the rude solo light turned on, and the mixer then booted as it should.

If things continue at the current rate (...warm boot an issue for the past 2 weeks or so... now it starts to have the same issue during cold boot), my D8B likely won't start up anymore, at all, soon.

Oh well... in a way, that almost makes it easier to troubleshoot (...if changing a component and it boots again - bingo!). At least IMO, it's sometimes more difficult to find the actual fault, if it is intermittent. A 100% of the time problem, can be easier to track down, IMO.

...still, this doesn't exactly fill me with confidence about my D8B. We'll see. I think some months back I said, if my D8B acts up again, it needs to go. So, if I'm sticking to my word, I should be kicking it to the curb at this point... unless it turns out to be an easy fix...

Anyway... I'll keep it on for the rest of the day, now. As long as I don't try to reboot it, it should now stay on an work fine for today. But I don't want to keep it on, over-night. It pulls too much power for that, IMO.

Suggestions and ideas are highly appreciated! I'll share updates if I observe anything else, or find the fault!

[csp]

Y-my-R,

Re your comment "months back I said, if my D8B acts up again, it needs to go" just think about my long saga with the donated desk and the number of times that I stated that it was going to the tip ---although no longer at the Centre I simply could not let myself allow it become a resident of the local tip, but rather it is sitting in the cardboard box it came in while waiting for me to drag it out again to work on it.

So I seriously doubt that yours will visit the tip !!!!!!!

David

[Y-my-R]

I think (or rather hope), that my "warm boot issue... slowly turning into also a cold boot issue" was really a "non-issue" but rather part of the standard D8B "maintenance" routine.

Cold booting worked fine, today. Then I thought I'd try "upgrading" and "erasing" the UFX cards/memory, which meant that I had to reboot, maybe just 2 minutes after initially booting.

When shutting down, waiting 20 seconds or so and then turning the D8B on, it stayed dark, again. No built-in display, no rude-solo... the computer booted to "DSP card not ready."
I tried a few more time while changing some things, like trying to boot with the ProBox instead, etc. - but no change.

I figured, I'd at least open the rear panel of the Argosy console, to see if I can at least re-seat the BFC and DB25 "Console Data" cables... I was able to, and did.

Trying to start the console again without waiting any further, worked without problems after that. I was also able to upgrade/erase the UFX cards/memory, which required two more reboots.

After that, I had the console running for about 10 minutes, then tried shutting down again. Waiting 20 seconds again... boots up fine.

So, looks like yet another case of "did you try to unplug it, and plug it back in, again?" (via the BFC on the D8B).

Hopefully it keeps purring along for a while, before acting up again, next time. But if it's just a BFC/DB25 re-seat every other month, or so, I can live with that

...so, no need to reserve a spot on the landfill for my D8B, just yet

[Old School]

Hi,
The last time I had a problem like this, it was the large power supply in the CPU. Not being an electrical tech, I found a company online who could make that part number and I think it cost me around $430 to have one made. I'm sure someone with more skills could have probably traced it to a component in that PS, but at any rate replacing it solved the dsp not ready, last known state reset thing. If you exhaust all other avenues and want that info on the company that sold it to me, I will look for it. I already searched my emails but it must have been more than 7 years ago, so I would have to dig through my paper records.

Have a blessed day,
Mike

[Y-my-R]

I wanted to give the desk a few more days and startups before I trust it, again and respond. But it seems that the simple BFC and DB25 cable re-seat (I didn't even clean anything this time), took care of the issue.

The Rude-Solo light and built-in display have now always turned on immediately when powering on, no matter if it was a cold boot or warm boot.

So, apparently, one of those two connectors was (BFC/DB25 at Console end) was not making contact as it should.

It's really a thing I should have anticipated... it's the most basic D8B maintenance maneuver there is (re-seat connectors) but somehow I just "assumed" that it would be something more serious... I guess deep down I feel that I'm "overdue" with new D8B trouble, since this last configuration has been working pretty well for a few years now, haha.

Besides, I hadn't opened the back of the furniture around my D8B for some time, and thought I wouldn't be able to re-seat those cables. But that wasn't a big deal... and I'll remember in the future.
It's all the connectors on the cards, I can't really get to (blocked by bigger snake cables passing by the back). But the BFC and DB25 are accessible (I'm getting senile, I guess).

So, for those reading along with D8Bs "acting up" - it REALLY OFTEN CAN be just connectors that don't make contact as they should. The cable-reseating (and ideally careful cleaning with good electronics cleaner (e.g. DeOxit) or isopropyl alcohol... and even "deeper" cleaning methods than that), are no voodoo, haha.
I guess I had to be reminded that you can't just leave cables untouched with the D8B and expect them to continue to work. If something acts up, a cable re-seat (starting with the external ones, like in my case), might be in order, and might just do the trick, for your D8B (or the one you're trying to resurrect, somehow).

I feel like a newbie again... had to ask here, before trying the absolute EASIEST of fixes, first

Thanks for the tip with the power supply issue that caused a similar issue and could be built custom to replace! I'm really glad it wasn't that for me, this time! Sorry to hear you had to go that far, back then.

The rack unit I use every day, has proven the most reliable I have - but I do have complete rack unit spares (that I expect will bring back certain odd issues I was having a few years back, with my setup). So, I wouldn't be out of things to try or parts to swap before it starts costing money... but I'm not sure if I'd want to deal with it, if it were a serious "track-down-the-issue" situation.

But it's great to know, that if the power supply part of the rack unit of the D8B system goes bad, there's companies out there, that can build a "clone" or otherwise functioning replacement for it.

I think the purpose was a little different, but somewhere in the database, munkustrap was describing how to build a custom power supply for the D8B from scratch... but I think the intention was more, to use it with a ProBox... or at least some function wasn't covered (was it phantom power for all the mic inputs or something)? (I think Anders built one per Munkustraps instructions and maybe even improved on it....?)

So, I kinda know that with either a lot of knowledge (custom build your own) or money to spend on older gear (get a custom "clone" of the D8B power supply built... but 7 or so years ago, your D8B wasn't THAT old, yet), there are options. But what you shared makes these options more "real" again, thanks!

...and just for laughs... this is the Alfa Romeo I used to own, that I get reminded of a lot with the D8B. It was the most exciting car I ever owned - both, in positive and in negative ways. I still miss it, and I still love it, and I'm still glad I don't have to worry about it anymore... it was a time-and-money pit. (Got the car free, b/c the engine was blown, and did a whole rebuilt... and then the problems with the car just STARTED, hahaha)

But when you took it on the road, it exhilarated your life and you had enough adrenalin in your system, to last for the next 24 hours, hahaha... The weird suspension, weight-balance from front to back like a skateboard and feeling of connection to the road, with a big angry critter under the hood (that shook the car sideways, when stepping on it while idling) was like nothing else

...and the D8B is kinda like that, to me. It's the closest thing to a "large scale" in-line mixer I ever owned, and all the options and possibilities I have with it, are thrilling to me, somehow... but just like with the Alfa... the question isn't usually IF there will be another problem, but WHEN.

That's why I keep comparing them... D8B, meet Alfa Romeo Alfetta GTV 2.0 (late 70s)… it’s got some similar characteristics, haha:

https://youtu.be/pO06_RtUnhM?t=188

(I'm trying with the regular [url] tags above, because the [Youtube] tags didn't work... tried a couple of ways... anyway, I doubt that anybody cares enough about the Alfa comparison, but the link above should be copiable, at least... sorry)

[csp]

Y-my-R,

I really wish that you would stop placing these posts ( ), especially for the next 6 weeks, while I am recovering from an operation and can't lift anything heavier than a tooth brush (!!!), as it is really making me start feeling that I want to dig out the donated desk again and give it another work over !!!!!!!!!!!!!

When it last failed I was sure that it was a certain J42 lead where it connected to the socket on the DSP board --- the socket felt loose (I think that with all of the pulling and shoving over the previous two years, I might have slightly damaged the socket), but I could not be bothered to do something about it (eg hit it with a bit of hot glue or something). Maybe I should have and when fully recovered I actually might dig the desk out and give that a go. Will just need to convince the "dragon lady" (my wife) to let me set it up in the spare room again !!!!!

David

[Y-my-R]

First of all: Get well!!! I wish you that you'll recover 100% and quickly!

In case that helps with getting the excitement down... I wouldn't be sure if I'd want to troubleshoot my own D8B at this point... but I definitely wouldn't want to troubleshoot that D8B "from Hell" that just doesn't want to get donated but wants to spread out lazily all across your spare room (... with parts all over the place). That unit seems to be "special"

But at least you already have a perfectly working D8B for yourself!

As mentioned plenty of times in various posts, I have multiple D8Bs that theoretically "work" - but I always had more reliability issues with other hardware combinations than I'm using now. But until I have to, I'm not planning to try to improve how any of the spares work... that they still boot up and generally work right now is good enough. But I'm sure they'd do something pretty annoying pretty quickly, if I was forced to switch out my main setup with one of my "working spares" right now.

So... I'm content with ONE working unit. Can't you be? (Just kidding, of course... I know you just want to follow through on your word about putting an awesome recording setup at the community centre. There's not much else that I hate more than being in a situation that looks like I'm not keeping my word - so I totally understand. But I IMO, you went above and beyond, passed by buzz lightyear and then went on even further, before you packed up that unit. So... nothing to feel bad about, IMO, after doing all that work. And who knows... maybe it's a blessing in disguise, and you need a parts unit some time soon... (I don't mean to jinx it, of course)).

So, I think it'll be best to just try to relax for those 6 weeks, and keep training with those toothbrushes for a while, before getting tempted to pull that D8B back out again, haha.

(I know exactly what you're talking about with hardly being able to lift a toothbrush, though... had a severe motorcycle accident some years back and had to be spoonfed for several weeks, and learn how to grab and hold silverware... or even a toothbrush, again. I know it sucks to feel this way... so, eat your spinach, do your exercises and come back stronger than ever before.... please!)