External Mic pre amps into the d8b

[funk]

External Mic pre amps into the d8b

Hi all, im starting to look at some external preamps
and rather than me trying a load of different ways to connect it up, i thought best cut straight to it and cut all the pain out
and ask hear as im sure most of you have been through this and wondered what yall are using and how you have it connected?

for example if i wanted to connect my 8x mic m-Audio fasttrack box
what would be the best way ?
i looked on youtube and states to connect the line out to the line in on a desk to bypass the desks preamp.
so tried that but isnt the line in on the d8b also connected to the preamp so a point less task.

im using a D8b and 2x HDR, im looking to get the best sig into the HDR, i did look at bypassing the d8b to get into the hdr direct from the interface but like to use the D8Bs eq and compressor going in to the HDR

So many options

so my question.. what is a good multi preamp to get without paying stupid money and best way to wire it up.
cheers all

[captainamerica]

I use Avalon Designs VT-737SP Tube Channel Strip Preamp Compressor straight into d8b ...but they are pricey ~ $2500

[doktor1360]

External Mic pre amps into the d8b

Hi all, im starting to look at some external preamps
and rather than me trying a load of different ways to connect it up, i thought best cut straight to it and cut all the pain out
and ask hear as im sure most of you have been through this and wondered what yall are using and how you have it connected?

for example if i wanted to connect my 8x mic m-Audio fasttrack box
what would be the best way ?
i looked on youtube and states to connect the line out to the line in on a desk to bypass the desks preamp.
so tried that but isnt the line in on the d8b also connected to the preamp so a point less task.

im using a D8b and 2x HDR, im looking to get the best sig into the HDR, i did look at bypassing the d8b to get into the hdr direct from the interface but like to use the D8Bs eq and compressor going in to the HDR

So many options

so my question.. what is a good multi preamp to get without paying stupid money and best way to wire it up.
cheers all

Hey funk...

Have a look at the initial post of this thread and reference the document images... it's all ADAT and requires an optical switch (Frontier Apache), but it's absolutely granite AND extendable/upgrade worthy. I plan on building & adding 500 series preamps along with the Mackie 800R Onyx preamp that's already in place. In my viewpoint, this is the only way I've been able to work out circumventing the analog inputs of the console, AND the DAC console converters. I don't even use the 1st surface layer (ch 1-24), all the I/O takes place on the 2nd surface (ch 24-48 : tape in/out). Those channels are still there (obviously) to use, although I haven't ran any signalling thru that part of the console in months...

As always, just to be transparent, I stand corrected for anything that my be misleading or erroneous in the above statement... and of course this :
[Standard Mgmt Disclaimer] - "Your actual mileage may vary..."


http://www.d8bforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2568

[Y-my-R]

The trouble with the Fasttrack Ultra 8R, is that the concept of that device isn't a "standalone preamp/converter unit" but it is a USB Audio Interface. The idea for that product is, to have 8 Pres available, that route their signal straight to a connected DAW computer (the main use for this device, isn’t really to send signal from the pres/inputs back out to other gear like the D8B, but just to the computer)

I used to have an 8R, but don't recall how it did monitoring. I'd expect that there's some type of real-time monitoring control-panel, that allows you to route the inputs from the Pres, back out to "somewhere" (e.g. Headphone Jacks and Main Outs), so you can hear yourself while recording, but without latency (and without any effects etc. from your DAW... the signal is being sent out at a point in the signal flow BEFORE it is sent to the DAW, so you cannot have DAW effects at that point, even if you wanted to).

If that control panel allows you to route the Pres directly back out to their corresponding line-outs (e.g. Pre 3 goes to Line Out 3), then you could connect the analog outs from the 8R, to the analog inputs on the D8B. But there's a good chance that the 8R only allows you to route the signal out to the headphones and main outs... and if that's the case, you'd really only get to use 2 of the 8R preamps at the same time, and route them to the D8B.

But even if this works (monitoring on "direct" line outs OR Main Outs), there are SEVERAL downsides to this approach, when using a USB Audio Interface like the 8R, that doesn't have a digital output:

1. Superfluous conversions that have a negative impact on audio quality. If you go into an 8R pre, and route it to it's analog outputs, then go into an analog input on the D8B, you already went through 3 conversions of the signal before you even hear it (into pre, conversion to digital to hit the monitoring panel in the 8R, then conversion to analog to go back out to the analog out on the 8R, and a third conversion back into an analog in, into the D8B, where it gets converted back to digital). You’re not likely to immediately notice a signal degradation, and maybe you’ll be happy with the results… but this is FAAAAAAAR from best practice.

2. Superfluous pres: Unless you're going into the (unbalanced - thus prone to interferences) inserts, the analog inputs on the D8B will pass through either another Pre-amp, or at least an OP-amp, to allow you to boost/trim your line level signals. Ideally, you'd want to go into an analog pre-amp, and hit a good (non-D8B) converter right after, before going into the D8B digitally. Everything else involves an additional "gain stage" that is technically superfluous and at best and doesn't contribute positively to the signal quality (probably makes it worse). More likely is a negative impact of running through two "gain stages" like that, for no added benefit. Going through 2 pres for no reason, is more likely to result in an immediately audible difference (but probably still relatively subtle).

3. The pres in the 8R aren't that great, either. It's barely an upgrade from the D8B. So, with what I'm saying above, IMO it's not worth to jump through these hoops, to get to use a marginally better preamp, than what's built into the D8B.

Long story short: The 8R is not the right interface, to tie the D8B in with your DAW workflow, in the most efficient way, and also not a good choice for a pre-amp to connect directly to the D8B.

As the Dok said above, the best way to go in, is to bypass BOTH, the D8Bs outdated converters AND it's unimpressive pres, by connecting any external pre to the D8B "digitally".

If you only need 2 pres at a time, and if the 8R allows you to route the incoming signal via the Monitor panel, to the S/PDIF output, then you could connect that to the S/PDIF input on the D8B and record through that.
This will bring other challenges with it, though... ideally, the D8B and 8R should then have their Word-Clocks synced together, or there would be a "different" kind of audio degradation (aliasing, possible pops, etc.).

Having said that, to avoid audible word-clock sync issues from “unsynced” devices connected to the D8B's S/PDIF input (e.g. a common such thing at the time when the D8B was new, would be to connect the digital output from a CD-Player, that CANNOT be synced to outside clock), the D8B resamples everything that comes into the S/PDIF input by default... which is another thing to avoid in my book.
So, while going out the S/PDIF on the 8R and into the S/PDIF on the D8B "may" get you somewhat better results than the D8B's built-in pres/converters, it's still not as good as it can be, unless everything is word-clock synced together, and the S/PDIF resample feature is disabled (I'll have to look if that's even possible... I think it ALWAYS resamples... I generally avoid the S/PDIF input on the D8B as a result. The S/PDIF OUTPUT on the D8B is safe, though, and doesn’t resample… I’m using the S/PDIF OUT all the time… I’d just turn that old dithering algorithm off, though and do the dithering with something more contemporary, if you HAVE to come down to 16 bit or something).

The best way to go into the D8B digitally, is via one of the 8-channel digital ports on one of the expansion cards. So, whatever you have available... ADAT, TDIF, AES/EBU... the audio quality going through those is absolutely identical (if anybody tries to give me a AES/EBU is higher quality, I'll “byte" your head off... the difference in the digital signal is a status-bit, that has nothing to do with the audio quality... it's otherwise, the 8xAES/EBU ports are identical in signal quality to multiple S/PDIF streams).

So, the best way into the D8B, while avoiding both, it’s pres and converters, and while not going “unbalanced,” is to use an external digital pre-amp, that has a multi-channel digital output.

On the higher-end side of things, there’s converter units like the Lynx-Aurora (n)… that’s what I have my eyes set on, but don’t have the funds for. You could get an AES/EBU expansion in those, and connect it to an AES/EBU card on the D8B.

The more cost-effective way, is to get a Pre/Converter unit with an ADAT input and output port on it. The cheapest one of those, that works standalone (i.e. not necessary to run a computer with a DAW, to be able to use it), is the Behringer ADA8200. I never owned one, so I don’t really know how they are… and I’m personally allergic to anything Behringer, so I wouldn’t know.

I’m personally looking for another old M-Audio ProFire 2626, because I had one of those, and they work great in standalone mode, with all the settings I need for that (clock sync, input/output routing is flexible, etc.). However, most of the used ones have their Firewire chip burned out, and you need a FireWire based computer, to make the standalone settings… at least initially.
Quality-wise, the pres in the 2626 aren’t all THAT different from the 8R, but IMO, they’re still a bit of a step up (I think Marketing at the time claimed the 8R pres are “Octane” pres, too… but I’m pretty sure it’s a different chip).

Speaking about the ProFire 2626… I do have an actual M-Audio “Octane” preamp, which is where the 2626 pres get their name from. That pre is nothing to write home about, but it sounds clean. So, for 8 channels of clean/sterile inputs and clean conversion, it’s a decent unit. However, you don’t get any RETURN channels to send back to the unit… I like to place these ADAT units in a way, where they’re close to where I’d record “the talent” - so, I’m missing to be able to send the monitor/headphone feed BACK to the ADAT device, so I don’t have to run yet another cable there.
So, if shopping for a front-end pre for the D8B with a digital output, I’d make sure it doesn’t only do AD-conversion and pres, but also does DA-conversion and allows you to bring signal back to the ADAT unit.

What the Dok mentioned about the digital patchbay… if you add a digital patchbay in, you can choose with the push of a button, what bank of 8 channels is being connected to the D8Bs TAPE I/O or Alt I/O cards.
I have it set up like this, too, and can choose via a digital patchbay, if I want 8 return channels from my DAW going to channels 25-32 on the D8B (I usually have my drum-track returns from the DAW going to those channel), or if instead, I can have 8 channels from my electronic drum kit going into D8B channels 25-32… so I can record MIDI drums, while monitoring them without latency (…and I can later replace this with a drum plug-in, and send THAT to the same channels on the D8B, instead. Works the same with “real” recorded drums for the return channels, of course).

I use a M-Audio Digipatch Patchbay for this, but am also on the lookout for the Frontier Design Group “Apache” digital patchbay, since that has twice the number of optical ports, and would allow me to make more ADAT ports going into the D8B “switchable"

The downside of using the Tape Return layer on the D8B to record your inputs, is that you can only go IN on D8B channels 25-48 (or via the ALT-Return), and can't use the first layer in the way the D8B was designed (i.e. with a traditional inline-console workflow, you'd normally have the Inputs come in on layer 1, and a return from the tape-machine/daw on layer 2 on the same relative channel). But when it comes to the audio quality, IMO, this is the only viable way to justify still keeping a D8B in a modern, professional level setup, without it having a negative impact on the final quality of your mixes.

Personally, I still use the first layer on the D8B, but not for recording. I have all my synths and some outboard gear returns connected to that layer (or at least defaulted to/normaled via the patchbay), so I can monitor all that gear in real-time. However, I'm not even using that in mixes, and print stems of these signals before mixing, by patching them to better pres or going directly into my audio-interface/daw to print the stems, before starting to mix (and then I sub-mix that stuff on the computer, before sending to a stereo-channel on layer 2 (Tape). My track-layout on the D8B during recording and mixing is very different).

For recording a single channel or two, I usually connect straight to my audio interface, but route the signal out via the interfaces Monitor Panel, to an ADAT input on the D8B. For monitoring that, I always have 2 channels reserved on the "Tape" layer on the D8B for my live-inputs, and so I can control my latency-free monitoring signal from that "input channel" and apply real-time effects without recording them, etc. (When working on music by myself, I have a bass connected to one input and a guitar to the other, so I can switch and hit record any time I want).

So, basically, I have a separate return-channel on the same layer, where the recorded signal is being returned from the DAW. So, what's usually done in an inline-workflow on a separate layer, I do on the same layer on a separate channel on the same layer.
(This approach of course won't work if recorded a lot of channels at once... but I can route up to 8 channels latency-free back to the D8B for monitoring thanks to my Apollo 8's DSP. Here at my home-setup, I didn't really need to monitor more than that).

Sorry, I wrote waaaaay too much again. The short version of all of this is this:

I’d forgo the 8R and would look out for a Pre/AD/DA unit like a Behringer ADA8200 (if it’s a budget question and if audio quality and reliability isn’t the #1 concern), or a “used” unit like an M-Audio ProFire 2626 that fully works. However, integrating one of those in the best possible way, will require proper word-clock sync between the devices, and you need to understand a little bit how the signal flow in the D8B needs to be changed, to be able to route this to a recording channel. But if what I’m saying in this paragraph doesn’t sound like a challenge to you, then such a Pre and AD/DA unit with ADAT I/O, that can be used in STANDALONE mode (without having it connected to a computer to use it), would be the best choice and result in the best possible audio from the D8B, since it lets you avoid it’s pres and converters… albeit while having to use the D8B with a different workflow (i.e. recording from the Tape layer), than originally designed.

Having said all of THAT… since I don’t usually record through the D8B, but mostly monitor through it, the MAIN pre-amp I use for most single channel and 2 channel recordings, is a Aurora Audio GTQ2 Mark III. This one:

https://www.auroraaudio.net/product/gtq ... o-mic-pre/

It’s basically, an updated Neve 1073. Most of the time when I record, I patch it to one of the line-inputs on my UA Apollo 8. Sounds great, and IMO much better than using UA’s “virtual" pre emulations (they can get a bit blurry, IMO). UA’s plug-ins are awesome, but IMO, anything you throw a big dynamic range at, like compressors/dynamics and pres, better happens on the ANALOG side, BEFORE converting to digital. After conversion, your headroom is severely limited (in comparison), so I don’t really get the point of a lot of these virtualizations. Anyway… getting carried away…

Phew… I gotta go and put my fingers on ice for a little, after typing all of this, haha! I hope it’s somewhat useful, at least and doesn’t just read like an endless ramble. Sorry, if so!

[Y-my-R]

And after writing all of THAT, and looking at the original post again, I realized that you're using two HDRs with your D8B, which likely means that the TAPE I/O cards are occupied and the analog inputs on Channels 1-24, as well.

This would then only leave the Alt I/O Slot for getting a signal from a multi-channel pre with digital out into your D8B... but that would generally work the same way, as what I said above about routing that pre to the "Tape layer" - you just route it to the "Effects" layer, instead.
But for the Alt I/O it depends on if you need those for FX returns during tracking, in case you use outboard gear for real-time effects for that (I'm just using the D8B's internal effects during tracking, and replace them with something in the DAW, later).

What I also derive from that, is that track count is really important to you, even if at the cost of multiple D/A and A/D conversions. So, from that, I take that you probably wouldn't care too much about the caveats I'm mentioning above.

So, by all means... if you already have unnecessary conversions and additional pre-stages built into your signal flow via the 2nd HDR... then I don't think it will make a big difference for your end-results, if you also connect the analog outs from the 8R to the OP-amps on the D8B... you're basically already doing, that, anyway.

Sorry about having missed your requirements by a mile, with my post above. It really always depends on everyone's own quality standards and if you're trying to get the last bit of extra quality out of a piece of equipment, or only want to use it in a practical way and get OK results... if it's the latter, you can totally use the 8R with the analog outputs... but you could as well just keep using the D8Bs pres... I really don't think there will be a world of difference. I'd expect the 8R pres to be a little less dark and a bit more open... but overall relatively neutral, and probably getting really noisy from around the 3pm setting. Typical cheap-ish audio-interface pres.

[funk]

Wow, thanks all...
to "captainamerica"... cheers for that, so how have you got it connected to the D8B ? the main ins or elsewhere ?

to "Doc" thanks for that doc i did see that thread loads of info on that, cheers, i also looked at the "Frontier Apache" as an option, read the sos review, veryhandy, im looking at all options at the mo and getting more of a feel of whats what making me wiser by the day, cheers dok

to "Y-my-R "
thanks for spending the time to do all that, very infomative, yea we have had the conversation before about the "fast track" so this is an extension of that, in that i have that gear and wondered how other people are connecting their pre amps, so just using my "fast track" as a ref point as thats the only multi one i have, yes agreed im not sold on the idea of using it full time to get sig into the HDR, as you know i only really got it to send the mix from the D8B to cubase via the SPDIF for further editing and to get a better sounding MP3 of the mix rather that sending it from the d8b to a cd recorder the taking the mp3 off the cd using the awfull Windows media player. so.... sorry back on to this...
so im open to ideas on whats about, for how much, and how to connect it all for best bang for buck, as said i do have an AMEK 9098 pre ( see att) but at mo im still going in to that with a Mic the the O/P of the 9098 to just the input of the desk on bank 1, so... isnt that still using the pre amp in the desk ? albeit ican still turn the amek up and the D8B desk input down but again its still using the A/D converters in the desk, is that almost pointless ? so, im not sure how to bypass this i obviously need the A/D conversion just where to connect it in the chain going to the HDR and what bit of gear and the best way to connect.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE
"If you go into an 8R pre, and route it to it's analog outputs, then go into an analog input on the D8B, you already went through 3 conversions of the signal before you even hear it (into pre, conversion to digital to hit the monitoring panel in the 8R, then conversion to analog to go back out to the analog out on the 8R, and a third conversion back into an analog in, into the D8B, where it gets converted back to digital). You’re not likely to immediately notice a signal degradation, and maybe you’ll be happy with the results… but this is FAAAAAAAR from best practice.
Superfluous pres: Unless you're going into the (unbalanced - thus prone to interferences) inserts, the analog inputs on the D8B will pass through either another Pre-amp, or at least an OP-amp, to allow you to boost/trim your line level signals. Ideally, you'd want to go into an analog pre-amp, and hit a good (non-D8B) converter right after, before going into the D8B digitally. Everything else involves an additional "gain stage" that is technically superfluous and at best and doesn't contribute positively to the signal quality (probably makes it worse). More likely is a negative impact of running through two "gain stages" like that, for no added benefit. Going through 2 pres for no reason, is more likely to result in an immediately audible difference (but probably still relatively subtle).

3. The pres in the 8R aren't that great, either. It's barely an upgrade from the D8B. So, with what I'm saying above, IMO it's not worth to jump through these hoops, to get to use a marginally better preamp, than what's built into the D8B.

Long story short: The 8R is not the right interface, to tie the D8B in with your DAW workflow, in the most efficient way, and also not a good choice for a pre-amp to connect directly to the D8B.
"
END
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
haha yea i get that, and i knew that was the case, i did try it that way using the main outs from the " fast track and did a A/B test against just using a mic straight into the D8B and surprise surprise a mic stright into the D8B sounded better, so wont be using the "fast track"

_____________________________________________________________________-
quote
So, while going out the S/PDIF on the 8R and into the S/PDIF on the D8B "may" get you somewhat better results than the D8B's built-in pres/converters, it's still not as good as it can be, unless everything is word-clock synced together, and the S/PDIF resample feature is disabled (I'll have to look if that's even possible... I think it ALWAYS resamples... I generally avoid the S/PDIF input on the D8B as a result.

END
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

im going to try this tonight, good idea, so will try with motu and 8r spdif in to the d8b, we will see thanks


regarding "The more cost-effective way, is to get a Pre/Converter unit with an ADAT input and output port on it. " part, i did try a test using a MOTU 2804 MK2 (see att top)which i have as analog into the motu then adat out of that to the adat in on the HDR, though eq or gain control was not bad, so i will try using the adat into the desk

9098 motu.JPG (Array KiB) Viewed 1740 times

yea doks digi patchbay idea looks good, had a look for that one on facebook market anf ebay and gumtree and got nothing so not many in the uk so will keep eyes peeled for one of them.

2 x had to the d8b set up,,,Yes i have HDR 1 coming into bank 2 via adat as normal and have HDR 2 going into bank one but the other way from what your saying, so i have chans 1to8 coming in and out to the ALT card and have chans 9 to 24 coming out the hdr in to the banks 9 to 24 on the desk, this leaves me the inputs chans 1-8 on the desk free for connecting anything as i never need more than 8 anyway.
checked out the....
https://www.auroraaudio.net/product/gtq ... o-mic-pre/
sounds good, abit outside my budget im afraid, i can dream though

thanks for all that very helpfull

[captainamerica]

Nothing special, Funk. I use a Patch-bay when I want to connect to my VT-737SP . Basically I send all my instruments inputs as MIC/LINE into VT-737SP inputs and send the outputs of the VT-737SP to d8b inputs.

See workflow attach for 737.

Also, last week I laid down some solos with my gtr Sunn AMP. I used 3 Mic inputs going into my PreAmps and sent those 3 outputs to 3 dedicated d8b ch, back to my DAW.

[Y-my-R]

Sorry about the delay - I took a few days off and also didn’t stop by here for a little while.

Assuming that the MOTU 2408 MKII converters are better than the D8B converters (it’s pretty old, too… I never had a chance to work with one of those), here’s what I’d do, with the gear you have available:

1. Amek Pre output connected to line-input on MOTU 2408
2. ADAT out on MOTU 2408 connected to ADAT in on D8B expansion card (if they’re all used, already, that’s where a digital patchbay would become useful)

For this to work without clicks or other digital sync problems (e.g. audio dropping out on some channels for no reason), the MOTU and the D8B need to be synced together via Wordclock. But if they’re synced, then you can achieve a “clean” signal path in the way described above.

About the thing with the 8R… everything considered, it sounds like the “best” (although not perfect) way to integrate that in the signal chain, would be to only use up to 2 of the 8R pre-amps at a time, set them to unity gain for the output in the monitoring control panel and route them to the S/PDIF out, and then on the D8B, route the S/PDIF input to a recording channel (that routes back out to an HDR). I still think that the D8B will “re-sample” the digital signal coming in via S/PDIF… but while the resampling it does here WILL have an impact on the audio quality, it’s the subtlest impact available, from all the other options (e.g. analog out back to analog in plus going through another OP-amp).

I mean, realistically, you shouldn’t be able to hear the difference by ear, only, of the original signal vs the resampled signal after going into the D8B’s S/PDIF input. I just wouldn’t use that as my “main” route for recording, as I’d expect that “practically inaudible imperfections from resampling” would have a similar, but negative effect when “stacking tracks” that are all recorded this way, similar to how a nice pre-amp that isn’t necessarily sounding THAT much better when hearing it solo’ed, adds it’s magic when “stacking” a number of tracks that were recorded through it.
In other words… if you need another 2 preamps for some reason, and what you have available is the 8R, this would be the best way to use it with the D8B, IMO… but I wouldn’t recommend using that as the “main” way in. For that, the Amek->MOTU->D8B->HDR signal chain would make the most sense, assuming that all connections from the MOTU forward are digital (and word-clock synchronized).

…and of course in general, I expect that AMEK pre to be in a whole different league than the 8R or D8B pres. So, definitely use that one, whenever you can! And again, IMO, the route to connect the pre analog to the MOTU, and then go via ADAT to the D8B, is the “cleanest” signal path you have available, with the gear you mentioned you have.

Again, best of luck with getting the most out of all of this!

[funk]

ahhhh, y-my-a, sorry mate only just read this.
i did do this...

"1. Amek Pre output connected to line-input on MOTU 2408
2. ADAT out on MOTU 2408 connected to ADAT in on D8B expansion card "

and just put a "T" on the clock from the hdr, seem to work fime with or with out.
not bad at all, a bit more gain and open, but thought the diff was going to be massive but its not.

i also got hold of a focusrite liquid saffire 56 to try as a stand alone unit cus the firwire part of it was fucnackerd so you could not connect it to a pc to try all the sims but worked as stand alone and to be fairto the d8b vocals did not sound alot better but my bass did, but i have other toys that are better for bass anyway, so got rid of that, so now after a bit of a learning curve and trying a few things, im back to just MIC-LEAD-AMEK 9098-D8B- Lightpipe to HDR, done.

im just about to release a 4 track ep based on this path, so we will see.
thanks again to all the thought power you have obviously put in to this for all the options, your a star, thanks

@ captainamerica
cheers for that, i will check that out

[captainamerica]

Most of the time I run the outputs from my Avalon back into the d8b pre-amps...that gives me a TON of S/N headroom