D8B and Presonus Studio One

[bassman]

I have just acquired a Pro Box, and as I have two D8Bs, I have set one up as controller for Studio One. All went very easily, no problems at all.
But there was no information on what buttons did within that DAW, so after a bit of pressing I figured out all the important stuff. I was really just trying figure out how to get control of the DAW tracks beyond 24 and FX returns, Bussmasters and VCAs. I found how to control Aux sends, but I made a chart of what I found if it speeds things up for others.
It's a great little box, I am sold on it now.

D8B - STUDIO ONE
MASTER SECTION
LEVEL TO TAPE. - TRACK SELECT <-
DIGITAL TRIM - TRACK SELECT ->
AUX 1 - SHOW ONLY VCA FADERS
AUX 2 - SHOW ONLY INPUTS (AS SET UP IN DAW)
AUX 3 - SHOW ONLY AUDIO TRACK FADERS.
AUX 4 - SHOW ONLY INSTR. TRACK FADERS
AUX 5 - SHOW ONLY FX RETURN FADERS
AUX 6 - SHOW ONLY BUSS FADERS
AUX 7 - SHOW ONLY MASTER FADERS
AUX 8 - SHOW ONLY ALL MIX FADERS
AUX 9/10 - WRITE ON/OFF SEL. TRACK
AUX 9/10 PAN - READ ON/OFF SEL. TRACK
AUX 11/12 - TRACK SELECT <-
AUX 11/12 PAN - TRACK SELECT ->
SOLO - CLEAR OVERLOAD LEDS
MASTERS - SHIFT DOWN ONE TRACK
SHIFT - SHIFT UP ONE TRACK
MIC/LINE - SHIFT DOWN 8 TRACKS
TAPE IN. - SHIFT UP 8 TRACKS
EFFECTS - FLIP PAN/FADERS

ASSIGNMENT SECTION
ASSIGN BUSS 1. - SHOW/HIDE INPUTS
ASSIGN BUSS 3. - SHOW/HIDE MIX
ASSIGN BUSS 5. - ADD INSERT > SEL. TRACK
ASSIGN BUSS 6. - ADD SEND > SEL. TRACK
ASSIGN BUSS 7. - EDIT INSERTS > SEL. TRACK
ASSIGN L-R. - PAUSE ON/OFF
ROUTE TO TAPE. - RECORD
MASTER L/R WRITE - FADERS OFF
SHORTCUTS ALT. - METERS OFF

AUTOMATION SECTION
FADERS. - SAVE
MUTES - UNDO
PAN. - LATCH ON/OFF SEL. TRACK
AUTO TOUCH. - TOUCH ON/OFF SEL. TRACK
ALL - ASSIGNABLE IN SHORTTS USING ESC KEY
TRIM LEVELS - ASSIGNABLE IN SHORTCUTS USING RETURN KEY

TRANSPORT SECTION
SMPTE VIEW - FLIP BARS/SECONDS
ENTER - LOOP ON/OFF
LOOP - AUTO PUNCH ON/OFF
LOCATOR - CLICK ON/OFF
SNAPSHOT - LAST SOLO ON/OFF

DYNAMICAS/EQ SECTION
ON - DISPLAY TRACKS 1-8 LEVELS AND NAMES
SETUP - DISPLAY TRACKS 9-16 LEVELS AND NAMES
MEMORY A - DISPLAY TRACKS 17-24 LEVELS AND NAMES
MEMORY B - CONFIG MENU FOR PROBOX
EQ - BYPASS ALL, MONITOR, SENDS ON/OFF SEL. CHANNEL
GATE - SEND LEVELS OF SEL. TRACK
COMPRESSOR - FADER LEVELS AND TRACK NAMES OF GROUP SEL BY BUTTONS ON/SETUP/MEM A
LOAD PATCH - INSERTS BYBASSES SEL TRACK
SAVE PATCH - INSTRUMENTS EDIT

JOG WHEEL - MOVES PLAY POSITION

[Y-my-R]

Great stuff, bassman, thanks very much for sharing!!

I don't know if you already covered everything that is mentioned in the Studio One manual, but another place to find out what everything does, is also the Studio One manual.

In Studio One, go to the Help menu, and select "Studio One Reference Manual". Then do a search for "Mackie Control". Then click on the "Mackie Control Support" article.

This details how Studio One integrates with the Mackie Control/MCU protocol. Since that's what the ProBox emulates, that's also what the d8b will do.

It's of course true, that the d8b is not labeled the same way an actual Mackie Control unit is... so, what you gathered should help figure that out. So, again, THANK YOU!

I don't recall without looking, but the ProBox manual might also have outlined the MCU assignments of the d8b buttons, but this 'might' have been DAW specific, with Studio One not being listed... not sure anymore.

Since you have two d8b's... I have two as well, and applied "P-Touch" labels (one of those little label-maker machines) to one of the d8b's (the one I mostly use with the ProBox), but left the stickers off of the other one. This way, I can always peek at the other d8b, if it's running in the "other" mode, to figure out what button does what
(Mine's labeled for Logic, though, since this is my main DAW).

If someone with with good photoshop skills or something would be up to it, it would also nice to have different Overlays for the different DAWs... to print at home, and cut the holes yourself
Similar to the Lexan-Overlays the Mackie Control units come with. However, I tried doing a self-cut overlay like that myself for the MCU some years back (for some custom assignments), and it came out horrible... so, someone who's got better skills at that sort of thing would be needed for that

Thanks very much again, bassman! I use Studio One, too, sometimes, and this will definitely be helpful!

[bassman]

You're welcome Y-my-R,
I made some edits to the functions as I discovered more.

I though about an overlay too, but after using the Probox for a while I really only use a few of the non-matching buttons, like "SUB 3 & 5", MIC/LINE & TAPE IN, etc.
I did look at the Studio One manual but that section didn't really help much.

I did notice, in the Probox manual, that some audio functions still work, and I was thinking of bringing the Aux 9/10, Aux 11/12 and Control Room out from the other D8B into the Probox one, to have the most common items under one surface, but it mentions Aux 9/10 & Aux 11/12 inputs. There are no such inputs, so that is odd?

Anyway, its all working perfectly, for my needs, so I'm more than happy with the Probox.

[Y-my-R]

I'm using a separate Mackie Big Knob for monitoring purposes, so I'm not really too familiar with what inputs and outputs can be used while in ProBox mode.

I just looked at the ProBox manual... and sure enough, one of the tables claims there would be Aux INPUTS 9-12... I'm only aware of Aux OUTPUTS, though.

Section 7.5.2 in the manual says the following, though (with a picture of Phones/Cue 1 and Phones/Cue 2 sections of the d8b next to it):
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
"On the Phones/Cue Mix 1 /2 area you can select the Inputs Aux9/10, Aux 11/12 or the Signal on your Main/Nearfield Speakers by pressing “AUX 9-10”, “AUX 11-12” or “CONTROL ROOM”."
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Don't ask me what exactly that does, though, since I haven't even really tried the monitor section on the d8b in ProBox mode (i.e. using that Big Knob for monitoring).

Are both your d8b's fully working, though? I have a ProBox on each of my two desks, and have a DB25 serial switch-box on each, too, so I can switch both desks to operate either as a mixer or with the ProBox.
If you boot the d8b up in Mixer mode first, set the levels etc. however you want them (incl. sends etc.), and then switch over to ProBox operation, the d8b still passes audio... even on all the other inputs and outputs, not just the stuff that is listed in the ProBox manual (...well, sometimes it resets the levels to -infinity when switching, and you have to switch back and set them again... but it generally works).

So, personally, I'd just set up all the routing the way I want it while the desks are operating in mixer mode, and then I'd switch over to ProBox mode. And I do that for other stuff sometimes, just not really for monitoring or cue mixes...

I could imagine that this is also what the ProBox manual means when it talks about the Aux INPUTS... maybe it means that if the desk was started up in MIXER mode, and has signals routed from the mixer channels to these aux sends, then they'd get "summed" at the Aux 9/10 buss (or 11-12 respectively). In that sense, the signals from the sends of individual channels, would then kind of arrive the the "Aux 9/10" INPUTS, when thinking of it as where those signals get summed.
When THEN switching over to ProBox mode with a serial switch box, maybe those signals would then still be available, and you could switch the Phones/Cue sections between Aux 9-10/Aux11-12 and the Control Room signals, with the buttons in that area.

Without the mixer having started up in Mixer mode first, I can't quite imagine where those signals for Aux 9/10 and 11/12 would be coming from, though. But I might just not be getting it...

I really don't know, and am only thinking out loud.

Anyway... Ralph/munkustrap sometimes stops by here in this forum, too. Maybe he has some insights about the Aux/Cue routing functions in ProBox mode. I certainly don't really understand it myself

Have fun with your new setup! The ProBox really does give the d8b a second, and parallel life!

[bassman]

So I figured out the Aux inputs issue. We have to use the Aux 9/10 & 11/12 outputs, but they have to drive a 120ohm load.
So I fed the Phones outputs from my "normal" D8B into those Aux outputs on my "probox" D8B and it works fine.
What use it is to anyone, I don't know, as it only feeds the Phones/Cue mix sections?

Bassman

[Y-my-R]

Oh... that sounds like you figured out where the Aux 9/10 & 11/12 "INPUTS" are.

Are these physical connectors? Or do you just connect a cable to the OUTPUTS with that name, and they function like inputs in ProBox mode, just with the trouble that they operate at a different impedance? Or how does this work?

If it's that, how would you match the impedance? Or does it just result in signal loss or "boost" (I don't know what a "normal" impedance level for inputs would be)?

Are there in-line transformers or something, you could connect between source and destination, that changes the impedance to something more compatible?

I'm still confused, sorry! Not that I'm planning to use this feature, but I'm curious... and maybe someone is reading along who wants to use this, but also doesn't know how this works and what it all means.

Thanks very much again!

[bassman]

Duh, my mistake. I meant the Aux 9/10 & 11/12 OUTPUTS. The headphone outputs 1 & 2 drive them ok.

[Y-my-R]

Thanks again for reporting back, Bassman!

That is fascinating!

So you're basically connecting a signal SOURCE to the Aux 9/10 & 11/12 OUTPUTS, using them like INPUTS.

Crazy to hear that this works. Thanks very much again for figuring this out!!

I guess by Mackie's design, these were certainly only intended as Aux-Outputs... but if the path between the output jacks and the Phones/Cue-Mix sections of the mixer is completely analog (and there's no components in the way that would limit the direction of the signal flow in one direction only... like a diode would in a non-audio application), then I guess there will still be "a connection", and the signal could travel "backwards" from the Aux-Output jacks, to the Aux 9/10 and/or 11/12 buttons.
...and if that button is in the right position, and there's no signal coming from the "digital mixer" since that's usually not active when using the d8b only with the ProBox (and not starting it up as a mixer first), then it actually makes sense, that this works.

In that case, the Aux 9/10 or Aux 11/12 buttons would still connect the Phones/Cue-Mix sections with these output jacks, and even though the signals come in "the wrong way" to the Phones/Cue-Mix sections, the signal could still be heard.

Very interesting, but without knowing the design of these signal paths inside the d8b, and the components used, this could also be a little "dangerous", IMO.

I'm not good with electronics, but in German (my mother tongue), we have a word for that, and it's called "Rückstrom" (the internet says, that's "return current" in English, but I'm not sure if that's right).

A "bad" example of Rückstrom would be, if someone would, for example, have the idea to hook up two amplifiers to a single speaker to "drive it harder". The result would be, that one amp's output, would pump current into the other amp's output (at least if the impedance is lower, or the current is high enough), but in the wrong direction... with the result that one of the amps (and possibly the speaker) would get severely damaged. (Don't ask why I mention that example... I had some stupid ideas when I was a kid. Y-Cables can cause a lot of damage, if you don't know what NOT to do with them, hahaha).

Oh, I got another bad "Rückstrom" example. Not too long ago (I'm still stupid), I intended to connect two external Guitar cabs to the two speaker outputs of a guitar amp (GK 250ML)... but got the ends of the cables confused, and shorted one speaker output, to the other speaker output.
With the current coming out of there, and the expected electrical resistance not being present, this meant INSTANT DEATH for the guitar amp as soon as I powered it on (which was a bummer, because that one was a collector's piece... same amp used by Rush, Iron Maiden, Death... just to name a few).

So, depending on the current (which isn't that high for a headphone amp signal), and what's in the way of it (e.g. I assume that a "higher" 150 Ohm load is present on the output for that exact reason, to prevent the signal from flowing in the wrong direction), components in the d8b "could" theoretically get damaged.

But I guess Munkustrap carefully tested all of that, before he listed that as a feature for the ProBox. And as opposed to me, he really knows his stuff when it comes to electronics and everything around them. (I just repeat hearsay).

I could still imagine, though, that it would then be a BAD idea to start the d8b in Mixer mode first (as I had talked about earlier on), and then have signals coming in from the "digital" Aux Busses that originate from the mixer channels, and then also having signals coming in "the wrong way" from the Aux-Output jacks. If there would be current coming from both directions, I'd imagine that this would lead to nothing good. Maybe even to something as bad as my "connect speaker output to speaker output" example.

In that sense, without expert input (i.e. Munkustrap....?...), I would say NOT to start the d8b in Mixer mode first, if you have the intention of using the Aux 9/10 or 11/12 OUTPUTS as INPUTS. But it should be fine if the d8b is started straight to ProBox mode, without allowing Mackie OS to boot up first. Then there should be no current coming to the Phones/Cue-Mix sections from the Mixer channels via the "digital" Aux-Busses (i.e. from the mixer channels), and it should all be good.

Anyway... I'm again just thinking out loud - and sorry that I often get a bit carried away with my stories, hahaha. But with my limited understanding of electronics and current flow, the above is my best guess, and I'd at least be VERY careful when using the Aux OUTPUTS as INPUTS.

Very interesting, though. I learned something about the d8b today! Thanks again for bringing this up, Bassman!!

[bassman]

Well I agree with you on this issue. I'm not using it, I use the normal Mackie purely as an input and cue board, feeding 2 stereo feeds from 2 cue mixes in Studio One, into 4 of the Aux inputs. That way I save the cue mixes in Studio One rather than in the Mackie. I send a 3rd Cue mix from Studio One to the Probox Mackie 2 track A for Control Room Monitoring.

I'm getting used to the different button configuration, though I don't understand why some of the choices were made. Perhaps to suit Logic or Cubase? I would much prefer the MIC/LINE and TAPE IN buttons just jumped from 1_24 and 25-48 instead of shifting up/down 8 channels, it gets pretty confusing when the fader numbers don't align with track numbers.

It would be nice to have the WRITE buttons working for fader movement recording, instead having to use SELECT then AUX 9/10, but I guess there was a technical reason?

Otherwise it all seems to be working very smoothly.

[Y-my-R]

Sorry for responding with so much delay. I’ve been busy and haven’t been on here much…

Much of what I’ll say here, you will already know… but I always like to go into a bit more detail, for people who may be reading along. It might be helpful to them (and it helps me organize my thoughts).

The D8B was of course mainly designed as a digital mixer. Making it usable as a control surface was just some half-baked extra feature, by making it possible to use 8 of the faders (17-24) in HUI mode. Not particularly useful, IMO… but better than nothing for the time.

So, I’d think that most customers who bought a D8B new, didn’t even realize that most of the buttons and faders, etc. on the D8B, would not directly pass audio like on an analog mixer (even though that’s pretty clear, if you have the ability to switch between the Mic/Line and Tape-In layers, etc.).

Instead of passing audio, the majority of the buttons and faders on the D8B just send and receive MIDI commands, to communicate with the CPU unit in the rack, via the "Console-Data" DB25 connector (where the ProBox is connected), and through that, the signal goes back to the DSP/Brain boards inside the console, to change the settings where the signal is actually being processed (i.e. the DSP cards in the console).

I'm not sure if some of these signals go from buttons to DSP boards directly, without going to the rack unit... but let's just assume for a moment, that most everything that is MIDI, passes over that DB25/Console-Data connector.

The MIDI commands the D8B uses were intended as a proprietary communication protocol, just to make all the components function together as a unit (…well, maybe there were plans to expand it beyond that, and beyond that half-baked HUI implementation, but I want to keep things simple enough. At least that functionality expansion never happened during the D8Bs life cycle as an actively sold product, and only happened when the ProBox was available... well, and the D8Bridge software... but that's a similar, but different story).

As we all know, Mackie also made a control surface called the Mackie Control, as well as the older HUI.

Someone apparently had the idea at some point, that you could tap into the MIDI communication inside the D8B, by intercepting it at that DB25/Console-Data connector. You could read out all the proprietary MIDI messages each button or each fader was sending, etc. The next step was, to figure out what the (mostly different) proprietary MIDI messages were that the Mackie Control (and/or HUI… that’s yet another language/protocol) were sending, when a button was pushed or a fader was moved. And lastly, once you got all those MIDI messages logged and mapped, you could “translate” a D8B MIDI message into a Mackie Control (or HUI) MIDI message, and vice versa.

…and that’s what the ProBox does. It’s translating MIDI messages in real-time. And it even “speaks” the Mackie Control “language” as well as the HUI “language”, and can translate both. So, essentially, it turns a D8B into a Mackie Control unit with two Extenders (and an analog Monitor Controller, similar to the Mackie Big Knob...and some other configuration options that you don't have on the original Mackie Control, for metering, fader calibration, etc.).

The trouble is, though, that some buttons or knobs on the D8B don’t use MIDI at all, and are simply analog components (e.g. the “Mic” switches on channels 1 -12, or the pre-amp pots…and I think some of the stuff in the analog monitoring section). Other buttons/components may be digital and send MIDI, but have other limitations (that I’m not familiar with), and/or may only send messages to a DSP board inside the desk, and not out via the DB25/Console-Data connector on the back of the desk. If the signal isn’t plain MIDI, and/or isn’t sent over that Console-Data connector, then you can’t tap it, and you can’t translate it, with a device that sits outside of the console.

I don’t really know the technical reason, but that’s kind of what I suspect might be going on here, and why the “Write” buttons aren’t useable in the way you would like. Besides, the original Mackie Control unit doesn’t have a ‘Write” button on each channel. That may very well be, why you first have to push another button to activate “Write” mode (via the Aux 9-10 button), before you can choose the channels for which this will be active. But I’m really not sure about the exact reason. I have to admit that I’m not using those features that much on the D8B. I just enable that stuff in software… I have an odd hybrid workflow.

But still, the ProBox didn’t really re-invent how the Mackie Control or HUI communication protocols function. So, if that works a certain way with an original Mackie Control (e.g. b/c there are no write buttons on the channels), the D8B w/ ProBox will work the same way. None of that was changed in the design of the ProBox from what I understand. It’s just translating. So, that’s why some button’s functionality isn’t working quite as expected, IMO.

About the Banking of faders in groups of 8 - there’s a simple explanation for that, though: The Mackie Control and HUI control surfaces both have 8 faders. That’s why the default is, to bank over by 8 faders/channels at a time. However, some DAWs allow you to change that inside the DAW, where you would configure your Mackie Control or HUI behavior. But of course there were expansion modules called “Mackie Control Extenders” available, where you could add as many faders as you want (in banks of 8)… and then you’d also be compelled to jump banks by as many faders as you have in total.

In Logic, for example, I’m fairly sure that it’s possible to configure how many channels you want to bank over with a single button push - although it might do that automatically, depending on how many Mackie Control units and extenders are detected, I’m not sure. But I recall changing that at some point, but don’t remember if I had to hack a preferences file for it, or if it was in the user interface.

Another example for a parameter that configures Mackie Control functionality, that isn’t available in all DAWs (…and is one of only a few things that keeps me from switching to Studio One), is that Logic has a setting called “Track Lock” under “Logic Menu->Control Surfaces->Preferences” (then select the unit you want to change this for).

As mentioned, I have two D8Bs and two ProBoxes. My main D8B works like everyone else’s, and dynamically switches channel assignments, according to the buttons I push (e.g. Audio Tracks, MIDI Tracks, Virtual-Instruments, etc.). However my second D8B, when in ProBox mode with Logic, I configured what channels I wanted on which fader, and then turned “Track Lock” on. It’s static, and all faders always have the same assignments, and I want it that way.

What that does, is that no matter if I switch the first D8B between different types of channels, the second D8B will always display the same channels all the time. For me, that’s my Busses, Auxes, VCAs, Master channels, and also the Click-Track, etc. So, more for controlling summed stuff and groups, send levels for what goes out to external gear, etc. This makes it more similar to working with a large format console, where that stuff is just always where you’d expect it to be (i.e. in many cases, on the other side of the Master Section… just like it is for me, here).

Honestly, I think if the D8B had channel displays, that wouldn’t even be that important for me… but I hate it, if I have to search which channel does what, and even just touch the wrong one, where I had carefully set the levels for before. So I have all the Summing and General Stuff always on the same faders (using a template when starting a new project), and the other D8B has a monitor-screen over it, that aligns pretty well with the channels… so it’s sort of OK to figure out where what is… but still not perfect.

…sorry, I got a little side-tracked. My point is, that Studio One does NOT have the Track Lock parameter, and I can’t use the dual D8B/ProBox setup in that way with it. This is important enough for me, to stick with Logic for now.

Long story short, some DAWs may give you access to the configuration for some Mackie Control protocol parameters (e.g. Channel Count for Banking, Track Lock), while others don’t.

Again… sorry for the long post, but I type about as fast as I speak, and didn’t feel like working right now, so I slacked off for a bit and typed this

All of this is probably not that useful for you, in Studio One, but maybe it helps someone else to understand why stuff does what it does and how (…if anybody really has the patience to read through all of this, hahaha).