Not quitet the end Of the saga

[Y-my-R]

Never took apart the power cable (...but disconnected it from inside the rack several times... that's fairly easy when the rack is open).

...but what you said about the behavior changing when using different MIDI cables made me think of this:

What happens if you have NO MIDI CABLES at all going in and out of the D8B for a test, and just press play on the HD24 and let it send the signal via ADAT optical into the D8B (but w/o the D8B syncing to timecode)?

Does it also freeze without MIDI connected? If the sync settings aren't right, or there's somehow a MIDI loop etc., then that could very well be responsible for the freeze.

In case it doesn't freeze without MIDI cables on the D8B... what's your usual MIDI setup? Just out from the HD24 to In on the D8B and Out from the D8B to the In on the HD24?

If it's a more complex MIDI setup than that, and there'd somehow be a loop, that "can" work for a short amount of time until the MIDI feedback loop overwhelms everything and locks things up.

At least this would be a simple test. Disconnect the MIDI cables from the D8B (both), hit play on the HD24, and see if it still freezes.

(btw. I had sent you a direct message some months back, when I stumbled over the "Loss Of Audio/Frozen Meters" article towards the end of the page I'm linking to below. I read you didn't remember where you read that, and wondered why it's not in the database... well, it's in the database and you read it in the direct message I had sent you. I just also didn't recall reading that article in the database before, but only after we went through a million other troubleshooting steps, before that.

https://www.sonido-7.com/d8b/maintenance.html).

[Y-my-R]

...but if it worked upside down, it's probably not that.

I do have a few spare "regular length" umbilical cords for the D8B, btw., that don't look abused as yours does. They're pretty heavy, so I'm not sure if it would make sense to send something like that to Australia. But with the rack unit open, it takes less than 5 minutes to swap out the entire cable... so, it might make things a bit simpler (4 screws on the plate in the back, ground screw on the side inside the power supply, and two molex connectors to boards inside the power supply).

If you want, I can weigh one and you could look up how much it would cost to send it to Australia. I don't have any use for the extra "regular length" cords like that (other than keeping one or two as spares), so, if shipping is not prohibitively expensive and you'd pay for shipping, I could let you have one of my spare BFC cables.

[csp]

Y-my-R,

Firstly apologies, I did see your message and I thought that I had responded. I did remove the cable and gave it a full continuity/ohm test and initially the ohmage readings were all over the place, so I spent some time really squeezing the crimping pins into the cables and after that all cables (over a number of tests over a couple of days) showed an ohmage reading of about 0.1ohm rather than the 3 or 4 ohms previously. I also did the same for the cable going to the Brain Board but it was not as bad.

Re removing the power cable from the Rack unit, that is exactly what I did, but on removing the entire cable the process of pushing the unprotected part into the rack unit was somewhat more difficult as I had to fully undo the connector, remove the VERY tight rubber gromet and with difficulty push the cable through and into the rack unit, I then had to inspect what I will call the damaged part of the cable and insulate every wire and electrical tape the lot and then re-install. It now looks perfect from the outside and I have also cable tied the cable to the Rack case (near the MIDI sockets) so that it can not move.

After doing this the desk has worked perfectly until I flipped it right way up, BUT possibky Phil has a good point in relation to "gravity" pulling th cable, so that is why I am joing to try to pull the plug apart so as to try to see what it is like inside. As I stated a bit earlier the cable coming out of that plug is wrapped in electrical tape and that is definitely how it would have come from the factory !!!!

I have just done a test with the MIDI cables removed (they are only going from/to the Rack and HD24) and the song that I had been playing yesterday afternoon played right through. I then switched off the HD24 and re-inserted the cables and again played the song -- again it played right through. I did not try the desk's transport section once the cables were re-inserted, but the clock was counting perfectly in sync with the recorder

The only problem for the test was that I had already removed the big plug and had to reinstall it to undertake these tests, so maybe there is a problem inside the plug and re-connecting it released the problem.

If you could weight the cable and if doing what I intend doing today does not solve the problem if the freight cost is not completely over the top then I definitely could be interested. AND thanks for the offer.

David

[csp]

A very quick update.

After letting the desk stand for about 30mins from the last playing (where all was OK) and leaving the HD24 powered on. I decided to give it one last play.

This time I started from the desk's transport section ---all OK -- then let it play for about 30secs then hit the desk's Stop button ---all Ok --- so re-started via the desk's Play button --- all OK.

BUT at about 3.45mins in the desk froze --- music continued but nothing on the desk worked --- so I have no idea if it would have played had I removed the MIDI cables and tried it from the recorder's Play button and if playing OK then tried it with the cables connrected as I did previously.

The desk is now switched off and I am about to try to inspect the plug as I had planned.

David

[csp]

All,

I think that on bended knees I might have to give a VERY BIG apology to a certain donated d8b desk, for all of the very bad things and naughty words that I have called the desk over the past two years !!!!!

Apart from the odd ribbon cable that required a clean --- but don't all d8b desks require that over time --- I now don't think that there was ever anything wrong with the actual desk, but rather the problem was the power cable going from the Rack Unit to the desk.

You will recall that about a week ago I removed the power cable from the Rack unit and completely modified it and fully cleaned it up and once re-installed and everything re-connected the desk worked perfectly --- even with the faulty Apogee clock card (well I presumed that it was faulty because it was causing the desk to fail, freeze, no audio, etc) was working OK.

BUT then a couple of days ago I replaced the base plate and very carefully flipped the desk and re-connected everything. Then I had failure after failure --- I was back to square 1 --- a dud desk.

Then Phil had the brain wave --- as the desk worked perfectly upside down but failed when the correct way up, could the problem be in the power cable where it plugs into the desk, because gravity is pulling the cable down when upside down causing what would effectively be the top (up) side of the cable to be not touching the plug. but when up the desk is the correct up that side of the cable would now be the bottom side of the cable and gravity could be making it now touch the plug. Could there be some form of short taking place when the desk is right way up.

I had already intended the same day as Phil's posting, to remove the plug and try to undo it and look at the wiring. I was going to do this because the cable coming out of the plug was wrapped in electrical tape (actually it turned out to be gaffer tape) and this is definitely not how it would have come from the factory --- well my desk is not like this !!!

Taking the plug apart as it turned out was quite simple,. BUT what I saw inside was a complete disaster. The plug had obviously been pulled apart previously and played with. Even the braid was not earthed at either end (I would have thought that it should have been earthed at the desk end, instead is is virtually an RF aerial --- I have not earthed it just in case it was designed this way !!!!).

The cable has an earth braid/shield wrapped around the inner cables, but at the plug end (inside the plug) this was uncovered and the braiding splayed out --- very easy to touch something. There was also a couple of strands of this braid that had come adrift and had fallen down into the plug (possibly touching the rear of a couple of the plug's pins).

I very carefully cut off all of the loose part of the braid and got rid of it, I also very carefully inspected the plug where the wires were soldered on to the plugs pins and removed everything that should not be there.

I then very carefully and VERY tightly wrapped everything in proper electrical tape, bringing the tape quite thickly about an inch outside of where the rear of the plug would be and then re assembled the plug screwing the cable clamping device very tight --- the extra thickness of electrical tape ensured that there was absolutely no movement where the cable went into the plug.

I then screwed the plug on to the desk's socket, making sure that the plug was both a perfect fit on the socket and that it was screwed on extremely tight --- there is zero movement in the plug or cable.

I then made up a block to support the cable as it came out of the plug --- the cable is now 100% horrizontal and with zero strain on the cable.

I then booted the desk and had it running for about 6hrs during which time I tried everything possible (even loaded and ran Frollicking Faders) and the entire time I could not make the desk fail. I also shurdown and re-booted a number of times.

The desk has run perfectly for almost 3 days --- this was all with the Mackie Clock card so late last night I shutdown the desk and took a punt (again) and re-installed the Apogee card. It worked peffectly for about an hour before I shutdown the desk and went to bed.

Early this morning (about 14hrs ago) I rebooted the desk (still with the Apogee card) and it has been working perfectly and I have tried virtually everything. About 3hrs ago I shutdown, waited about 15mins for it to cool, etc and then re-booted and since the re-boot it has again worked perfectly on all functions.

So I am going to state thatI believe that the problem must have been one or both ends of the power cable and not a faulty card/component inside the desk.

I am going to keep trying it over the next few days --- including shutdowns and re-boots and if OK by about the end of the week (and I am sure that it will be still OK), I will pack it up and get some help (so as to keep it horrizontal and not be bumped) and will take it to the Centre and install it. I will also take and install the support block that I have made --- could be something that other d8b users might think about !!!

Could this really be the end of the saga --- I know that you are all saying "I hope so" well so am I ?????????

David

[Phil.c]

Well done that man I am so glad that you don't need any more pills and booze to keep you afloat David
What a waste that would have been to dump the desk

I said all along that it would probably be something simple?

Anyway, fingers crossed that it stays ok!

Phil

[csp]

Phil,

Thanks. Just one more thing to try.

In the early days of this desk, when I had no audio, I swapped the data cable for a spare one that I somehow had and have been using it ever since. Today I am going to swap it for the cable that came with the desk and see if it is OK --- I would prefer to keep my spare cable that I know is good.

If the cable is Ok, I will continue testing the desk for a few days and then take it to the Centre, install it and pray that it still works !!!!!

David

[csp]

Not only is this annoying it is also super frustrating !!!!!

Since re doing the power cable at both ends and supporting the cable where it plugs into the desk, the console has been working perfectly on all functions and with the Apogee clock card (that I initially thought was possibly faulty) rather than the Mackie card for almost a week. I had even arranged assistance to move the desk to the Centre for installation later today --- now cancelled !!!!!

I did not have the desk turned on yesterday as I was busy, so this morning before stripping it down for the move I decided to give it one last go.

On boot up I did as I have been doing checked for signal via a mic into Input 1. I then check the mic in each of the other 11 mic inputs (all OK). While doing this it dawned on me that I had not checked the Line Inputs 13 - 24 --- at the Centre I have 12 external Mic Pre amps that will be connedctd to those Line Inputs to give me effectively 24 mic ins. To do this check I decided to take 12 of the Line Outs from the HD24 and use these.

After connecting everything and again checking the mic in Input 1 (still OK), and checking the clock, I raised the Line Input faders to about -30db and set the Trims to about 10 O'clock. I then hit the Transport Section's Play button, the HD24 started to play, there was sound in the headphones (my monitoring source) and the desk's and external VUs were operating normally --- all good the Line Input work.

Then at about 30secs in all of the VU meters froze (what I had been experiening previously --- last year !!!)).

I then shutdown, re-booted and on booting all of the meters were either at full or nearly full. I did this about five times. I then shutdown and and removed and cleaned the Apogee card and re- installede it, on booting the same effect, so I shutdown and sawpped it for the Mackie clock card. I also removed all of the analogue line inputs (13 - 24). The HD24 was now connected only by its optical cables.

I then rebooterd and everything was normal, I checked the clock was at 48k and I swapped the HD24 from Word to Optical clock. The mic in Input 1 was normal, so I then swapped banks and raised all of the Tape Bank faders to -30 (where I have been testing them thre past week) hit Play and the VUs were OK, BUT at about 12 secs in the desk froze again.

I am completely stumped to know why after having the desk off for a day and/or plugging in the Line Inputs would cause the desk to revert to its original faulty state, especially when I was very carefull when connecting the Line Inputs not to move anything, especially the power cable or the data cable.

I have gone from being confident that the desk's problems were all in the power cable that is now fixed and that the desk could be installed where it was designed to go, to now not having a clue what to do or more importantly why after a day's non use and/or insterting the Line Inputs the desk would again become faulty, it can't possibly be coincidence !!!!!!!!!

The really hardest part is how do I now tell my wife after telling her last night that the desk was finally leaving the spare bedroom, to now telling her that it has failed again and the move has been cancelled !!!!!!!!

David

[csp]

An update.

Firstly on booting I checked the mic (OK), checked the clock setting, swapped to the Tape Bank and raised all 24 faders to about -30 and then hit Play on the desk's Transport. The desk froze after 5 sces. In the frozen state and in all the following tests the counter kept going, there was no audio and raising a fader on the desk rose it on the monitor, bank switching was still OK. The HD24 was turned on only each time after the desk had booted and everything had been checked and set.

Without going through the entire process, I then today carried out an exhaustive set of tests, where I removed all OPT-8 optical cables except on the 1st card (ie chnl 1 - 8), booted checked the mic was Ok checked Clock was OK, swapped to Tape Bank and raised all 24 faders, then hit the Play button. There was audio and VU movement for 30secs at which time the UV meters froze and the audio stopped. The faders could still be moved and their movement seen on the monitor, the desk's counter continued. and banks could be switched and their fader positions seen.

I repeated this process individually for each of the other two OPT-8 cards (ie only one card active at a time) and each case the desk froze between 30 and 50 secs.

This freezing and lack of audio on the freeze sounds exactly like what I had read a number of weeks ago from a 2006 posting somewhere about the power ribbon cable going from the Back Pane to the DSP Board not making proper or intermittent contact. I would guarantee that if I could see inside the desk each time it froze, I would observe that the Red LED on the DSP board had turned off --- no Red LED then definitely no audio !!!

As nothing had been moved inside the desk (surely simply plugging in some RTS plugs into the desk's Line Inputs would not cause the cable to move ?????), therefore I can only presume that there is a problem in the power cable going from the Rack Unit to the Desk and I am guessing at the desk end where the big plug is located. I have today removed the plug, checked the tightness of of the cable going into the back of the plug and then reconnecting the plug to the desk --- also checked the Data cable.

I am sure that if I was to remove the plug, cut off about 6" of cable and re conntect the wires to the plug's pins, the problem would probably be solved., but I can not see how to get to the actual pins for soldering and there are too many leads a number with the same colour and no inicating stripe or something to identify the leads when cut. The wrong lead connected to the wrong pin could casue super major damage !!!!!

I think that I will need to take up the offer made to me about a wekk ago of buying a new cable and importing it, or finally forgetting the desk which would be a shame as it had been working perfectly after I attended to both ends of the lead until yesterday when I inserted the RTS plugs.

Also something that I discovered when the desk first arrived and I initially installed it at the Centre and then again over the last week if I forgot to pull out the headphones (my current monitor source). If the speakers are still turned on or the headphones connected when logging off and shutting down the desk, it make such an explosive (ie full DC voltage getting to the speakers/peadphones) sound that it almost blows the speakers/headphones cones.

My home set-up does not do this because of the way I switch on the speakers last and then off first.

Is this sending full voltage to the speakers normal for this desk or is it another fault that will need to be investigated !!!!!!!

David

[doktor1360]

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...
I am sure that if I was to remove the plug, cut off about 6" of cable and re conntect the wires to the plug's pins, the problem would probably be solved., but I can not see how to get to the actual pins for soldering and there are too many leads a number with the same colour and no inicating stripe or something to identify the leads when cut. The wrong lead connected to the wrong pin could casue super major damage !!!!!
...
<deleted for brevity>

A good electrician should be able to tackle this successfully, David... it's just a beefy electrical conduit...

And yeah, when I saw the picture of that cable (other thread), this is the first thing that came to mind regarding what I'd personally do, clean that cable end up - the integrity of that cable is mission critical for this desk. I wouldn't do this unless you've got the proper tools and appropriate skill set(s) as well, not worth it (IMHO)...

Of course, here it comes (as if) :
[Standard Mgmt Disclaimer] - "Your actual mileage may vary..."