The Saga part 2

[csp]

Y-my-R,

Firstly "I know your other hobby is involuntary gardening... mine is, too, haha" ---- BUT I doubt if you have to wear an abeseiling kit and carry a jack-hammer to do it !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had meant to ask in my previous post if I should give the cable swap a go before finally giving up.

Re the DIO8, it is installed but not used, so I can pull it out.

Re the OPT8 cards, apart from one having more components than the other two, over the past few days when individually I had stuff going through them the desk worked, it was only when I connected the optical cable/s from the HD24 into more than one OPT8 card that the desk would freeze. I have not tried physically removing the 3rd card when I am trying the other two and I have not tried with the effects cards removed. I can do all of this over the next couple of days.

I can also spend half a day (in super cramped conditions) pulling out all of the plugs and removing the desk and then changing the cable --- then comes the hard part --- plugging everything back into it before bing able to test it !!!!!

Now to hang off the cliff to plant more stuff that the "dragon lady" purchased two days ago !!!!!!!

David

[csp]

An interesting update since my non ability to post a reply a few days ago.

I was able to get to the Centre for about 1 1/2hr today and did quite a bit of testing to see if I could determine why the desk suddenly started to freeze about two weeks ago after working perfectly for over 5 weeks.

Those who have followed this saga, might recall that about 19mths ago one day on booting the desk, it did not recognise that there were any effects cards installed and despite all that I did I could not get the desk to recognise the presence of the two cards, then just as suddenly one day about two weeks later when booting, the desk recognised the two cards as being present. It has remained that way since then. This could possibly be important in relation to today’s adventure !!!

On the weekend after numerous freezes, I did as Y-my-R suggested --- I changed the J42 power cable, but on re-assembling the desk and booting I had the same freezing and the desk going black as if turned off --- only the Rude Solo light and the desk’s VDU showed anything and there was no audio and bank switching etc was not possible.

I should state so as to save typing, that every time that I try something I shutdown the desk and turn off the HD24 recorder, wait about a minute and then re-boot.

I also have an SM58 connected to Mic Input 1 that on booting I use to check that I have VU signal on both the desk and external monitor.

Because of the desk going black situation without warning for the past week I have not turned on the monitors so as to avoid any possible speak thump if the desk shuts down fully. All testing has been visual by watching both the desk’s and external monitor’s VU readings.

Today when arriving at the Centre and before turning on the desk I removed (ie pulled out about ½ way so as to be out of circuit) all of the plugin cards except for my own standard Mackie Clock Card that I have been using for the last couple of weeks since the desk started playing up again --- just in case the Apogee card was faulty.

I then booted the desk and when booted I checked the mic --- worked OK. I left the desk running for about 15mins testing the mic about every three minutes --- OK

Although I realised that there would be no VU signal, I then loaded a session and turned on the HD24 and set it to internal sync as the Optical sync is was showing a fault --- because no OPT8 cards were inserted. I then hit play on the HD24 to see what might happen during the playing of the 5min song --- I also check the mic a few times (OK), it played to the end of the song.

Shutdown and inserted OPT8 No. 1 and rebooted --- mic OK. Turned on HD24 and selected Optical sync and then hit play. There was VU readings on the VDU and external monitor for the entire song.

Shutdown and repeated this process three times and each time the song played right through.

Shutdown and installed the MFX card and re-booted.

On booting the mic was OK so again loaded the session and turned on the HD24 and it played perfectly.

I repeated this process three times and all ok.

I then shutdown, turned off the HD24 and removed the MFX card and inserted the UFX card and then booted the desk --- mic OK so I loaded the session and turned on the HD24 and played the song --- all Ok.

Then shutdown, re-booted, etc and played the song three times (shutting down each time) --- all OK.

This was indicating to me that at least with OPT8 No. 1 the two effects cards were individually working correctly.

I then shutdown and re-inserted the MFX card, so that I now had both the MFX and UFX card installed.

Then booted the desk and the Mic was Ok, so I loaded the session, turned on the HD24 and hit play.

After about 30 secs the VU meters froze, I could not change banks, moving the faders did nothing on the external monitor, etc. I simply had to shutdown and reboot.

On rebooting the mic worked Ok, so loaded the session, turned on the HD24 and hit play then after about 30+ secs the desk again froze.

Shutdown and re-booted again and on hitting play the meters froze after about 6 secs and the desk went black apart from the solo light and the desk’s VDU.

As a result of these tests, I am now thinking that there is some form of conflict when both of the effects cards are installed or that one card has a fault that only becomes apparent when both cards are installed. The cards are installed such that the MFX is in slot 1 and the UFX is in slot 3 as recommended.

Anyone have and idea what could be causing this to happen and could this be the cause of the freezing and console going black that I have experienced since obtaining the desk?????

David

[doktor1360]

Hey David... just for shits n giggles, have you given the thought to removing the HD24 from the equation and re-running that test procedure?!? If everything in the evaluation steps you just elaborated on above works without issue, then reapply the HD24 into the mix; if/when you get to any failure state(s) take note of what the HD24 is physically attached to - there's your point(s) of failure. That's how I personally would attack this, by eating the elephant one bite at a time so to speak. This is all assuming you haven't previously done this already too...

Oh, can't forget this :
[Standard Mgmt Disclaimer] - "Your actual mileage may vary..."

[Y-my-R]

If you have something with ADAT I/O, other than the HD24, that would indeed be a good thing to try. I just always pretty much assumed that the HD24 is the only such thing you have.

Does the TT24 you have generate timecode? If so, maybe you could interconnect the D8B and the TT24 to see if syncing the D8B to the TT24 timecode would work without crashes, while having their ADAT ports connected (...but maybe there will need to be audio passing through, for this to cause it to crash... I wouldn't know).

Two more thoughts:
1. Where did you read that it's recommended to leave a slot empty between FX cards? I have never heard that and basically just "assumed" that the card slots should be filled "in order." So, I'd fill slot 1 first, then slot 2... (without skipping any slots), then slot 3, if you have 3 cards, etc.
I DID read in some other post, that it's best to alter the cards in the slots... so 1-MFX, 2-UFX, 3-MFX, 4-UFX - but I'm only repeating what I read in an old post.

2. Any time you move a UFX card to another slot, I'd go to the "Windows" menu on the D8B, and execute "Upgrade UFX Cards..." and "Erase UFX Memory..."

Just from the names of these two items, it gives me the impression that there is a local buffer/data-storage on UFX cards that is non-volatile... meaning, that the data doesn't get lost when there's no power supplied to the cards (i.e. when removing them and inserting them, elsewhere).
I do NOT know what kind of data is kept in memory on those cards, but if it relates in any way to how they're configured in the context of the D8B (e.g. slot position and default routing), then I could see this be a potential cause of a problem, any time the card is "moved" but the card's memory/buffer is not cleared.

Other than that... of course it could still be an issue with the card cage, or a cable that leads to it... but then you'd have to trace that issue back like you did with that J42 cable... not sure if I'd start over with this sort of process, if I was you.

What happens if you leave all the MFX and UFX cards out of the desk, but install all 3 OPT-8 cards (but still leaving that DIO-8 card removed... the firmware on that one might still cause issues if it's not V2)?

If it works without any FX cards installed, then it would point to an issue with the FX cards or card cage, or cable that leads to it, etc., I think.
But if that also freezes, or the desk starts freezing once there's a certain number of cards installed, then maybe it's an issue with how much power the cards needs, and the D8B can't deliver...

Just speculating, but if you're still willing to continue to troubleshoot, then the above is what I'd look into first (...starting with "Upgrading" and "Erasing" the UFX card(s) from the Windows menu.

[csp]

DOK, Y-my-R,

A reply to you both.

The HD24 does not generate time code apart from its own internal clock and this as far as I am aware does not transmit.

At the Centre I only have the desk and HD24 requiring clock and I have been using the desk as the master. The only other clock generator that I have is the donated BRC unit that I have not used (apparently its clock is a bit flakey).

Re the inserting the effects cards with a missing spot if only using two cards, I thought that I had read it in the manual but as it was a long time ago so it was possibly a post on the original Mackie forum by someone like Mike Rivers or Dan Worley both of whom worked on the design of the desk.

I was thinking last night that I hadn't tried to see what would happen if I moved the cards to slots 2 & 4 and I probably would have forgotten about updating the UFX card as it is so long since I had to do this. I will definitely do it when at the Centre either tomorrow or Friday (both my dates) and will also see what happens if I place the cards in following slots (will re update the UFX !!!).

In my first test yesterday I basically did try it with the effects card out, and with no OPT8 card installed so I only had the mic and then I repeated te test with only the first OPT8 installed and in both cases it worked perfectly. It only failed when I finally had both effects cards installed, so it could be connected with the updating of the UFX card. Will be interesting to see what all of the same tests deliver after the update.

If after the update the tests work OK with the one OPT8 card I will then repeat all of the tests progressively inserting the other two OPT8 cards.

Re the power supply, I have thought for some time that the power supply for some reason may not have been suppling the current/voltage required when the desk was under a load, If that is the case then I doubt if I will be "willing to continue". However I think that at one point over the past two years I did take the risk of installing my CPU unit and although only in demo mode, the desk still failed, but on my FULLY loaded desk it has not caused the desk to fail.

Because the transformer that came with the desk was quite small in both size and capacity (actually got quite warm), some months ago I purchased a new transformer for my desk and installed the old (ugly looking and VERY heavy) transformer that has been on my desk and working perfectly since I purchased the desk, so I will state that the transfiormer is supplying all of the voltage and current that the desk requires if operating correctly --- I have not measured if the 110/115V supply drops when the desk freezes, BUT I would doubt it.

Wish me a probable final bit of luck !!!!!

Both, --- If you can squeeze into a suitcase (one each I am not that mean !!!) and don't mind 30+Hrs in a couple of plane's cargo bays, my son is coming home for a 10 day holiday leaving next Wednesday (your time), if the next lot of tests that I do later this week don't work !!!!!

David

[Crash]

This reminds me of an HDR issue I had where the unit would just lock up after about a minute or two of playing. It would do it as a stand alone unit with nothing hooked up to it. I tried all sorts of stuff, talked with Mike rivers, we were both stumped. I finally just put the unit away. A couple of years go by and I did a remote recording. I dusted the unit off and gave it a test run along with another HDR I had. They both worked flawlessly for hours and hours. Took both to the gig and neither one failed me.

I hate when stuff is intermittent. Either break, or don't.

[csp]

Crash,

I could not agree more with you last line.

My problem is basically the opposite, the HD24 works perfectly, it is only the desk that freezes. when the desk decides to freeze the HD24 continues to operate as it should, and I must check to see if when the desk does freeze, does the HD24 switch itself from (say) Optical sync to its own Internal sync. This would be an even more interesting situation to look at when the entire control surface appears to turn off.

David

[csp]

DEFINITELY THE END OF THE SAGA.

I went to the Centre earlier today to give the desk one last try to redeem itself.

My plan was to leave the desk exactly as it was last time I tried it --- ie both effects cards installed (slot 1 MFX, slot 3 UFX and only OPT8 No. 1 installed, everything else apart from the standard Mackie clock card removed) --- and if it froze on HD24 playback, I would shutdown, wait and re-boot and then undertake the UFX update as suggested by Y-my-R and see if this solved the freezing problem.

So on arrival I booted the desk and checked the mic for VU signal (I was still not using the monitors), it was OK. I then loaded a session, turned on the HD24, checked the clocks on both the desk and HD24 (both OK), then hit Play on the HD24 (the desk’s transport section is not operative as I still have the MIDI out from the HD24 removed).

All worked perfectly, there was VU signal from tracks 1 – 8, for about 38 secs when the desk’s control surface went black only the rude Solo light and the VDU screen showing any life. All that I could do was to physically turn off the CPU’s power switch to turn off the desk and then shut down the HD24 (again).

This makes the desk very unreliable, because you never know when the control surface will go black --- not good if in the middle of a paying session.

After the usual wait time I rebooted the desk and checked the Mic (OK) and repeated the playing test. This time the desk did not switch off, but did its normal freeze thing at 30 secs, so I had to shutdown everything and re-boot. While shut down I re installed the UFX card.

I now decided to undertake the UFX update. On doing this there was the message stating that the update would require a desk re-boot (all OK with me !!!).

Did the update and on the message stating that the desk would reboot, the screen went black, but the following appeared on the external monitor and after waiting about 5 minutes I had to physically turn off the CPU unit.

Not being a person with programming type computer knowledge, I have no idea what it means but for interest only I would be interested to know. The message displayed being :

PMI Function = 0001
Invalid Selector = 001C
PMI Function = 0006
Invalid Selector = 002C
PMI Function = 0006
Invalid Selector = 00034
PMI Function = 0599
Invalid Handle = 0027F420

[color=#FF0000][/color] Just a quick update. After posting last night I was thinking that I thought that I had already done an update so went searching and found that I had and that I had received the same error message. There was a reply (sorry but forgot who from but possibly Y-my-R or DOK), but due to my very limited computer programming type knowledge I did not (and still don't) undertand what was said or what the solution was.

I then rebooted and decided to Erase the UFX memory as there was nothing important that would be missed if erased. On doing this again stated that the desk had to re-boot and on doing so I received the same error message as above and again I had to physically turn off the CPU’s power switch.

I then decided to re-boot and load a session and turn on the HD24 and play the HD24. I should mention that about four shutdowns earlier today I had grabbed a high powered bass guitar amp and had taken the left Near Field output and fed this at low amp volume level through the amp so I could hear something. Used this amp because if the desk went black and it acted as if the CPU power switch had been turned off, if there was the enormous power thump it would be most unlikely to damage the speaker.

On playing the HD24, I observed that the UFX effects that were part of the session were still present (indicating to me that the update and effects erasing had not taken place) BUT after playing for 31 secs the desk froze. I shutdown and re-booted and loaded another session and loaded that song on the HD24. Hit Play again and again the desk froze, this time at 25 secs.

I then shutdown and decided that over the next couple of weeks, I would remove the desk, strip out the plug in cards and remove the flash card, etc and probably take the desk to the tip. As I have previously stated I would be most reluctant to sell anything as I have no idea what is good and what is faulty !!!!!

My intention was to then re-install over a period of weeks the original Behringer MX8000 desk --- will be a slow process because I stripped out a lot of the cables and as previously stated when (together with another Association member who is now deceased) I initially set the room up, most of the cables were not identified as it was never planned to install any other desk, couple this with the almost non-existent space behind the console’s desk and equipment rack and no one to help me --- previously I was at the rear of the desk and equipment rack and my helper was at the front feeding me the cables as we constructed/soldered every loom, but now I will need to do both.

Hopefully below is a photo showing the very small working space behind the desk, but it does not show the rear of the equipment rack where most of the cables are going or how I have to slide under the table to get to the rear of the desk and rack, but is does show the number of cables going to/from the desk and that very few of the cables are identified. The black box on the LHS is the sub and at the top of the picture you can see the large 240 - 110v transformer that I recently installed when I purchased the new one for my desk. Also on the table you can see a reasonably thick grey loom going towards the far end of the table, this is what the majority of cables going to/from the rack are like and most are figure 8 cables with two plugs for each strand. it also shows the support block that I constructed to hold the big power cable and to stop it from moving --- the desk is externally angle bracketed in place so that it can not move, meaning that the cable can't move.



Then the last straw came when leaving the Centre I spoke to one of the committee members (a real pain who only considers that the Centre should be a rehearsal space for the Concert Band that she plays in (and quite badly !!!) and who has been super negative about the entire idea of having recording facilities (even though to have such a facility and because of the size of the studio area --- large enough for a symphony orchestra --- would be able to bring in more money in a few months than the Community based voluntary Concert Band would probably earn in three years) BUT she is very forceful and stampedes all over the VERY week and stupid committee.

As an indication of the potential, about 6 miles up the road is the huge Warner Bros 9 Sound Stage film studio, where block busters such as some of the The Pirates of the Caribbean, the Elvis Movie and Ron Howard’s The Cave movie were shot and apparently they have no large recording studio to undertake the musical sound tracks, with all large orchestra sound tracks currently having to be recorded in Sydney (about 900 miles away).

She went on to say that I should not install the Behringer desk as the room will be stripped to be sued as a store room for a full sized vibraphone. AND she will force the stupid committee to accept her demand.

I can see the Association going bankrupt fairly soon, but at least I will acquire some nice outboard gear and I might even be able to grab the Truth ribbon monitors (3020 from memory !!!) and the original amazing B2029 Sub and use it as part of my home surround TV system. All in lieu of the $3k+ that I have spent on trying to get the desk to work.

Finally, I would more than like to thank all of the Forum members who have helped/assisted me with trying to get this donated desk to work over the past 26 months, it has been most appreciated. I will still be hanging around the Forum and assisting where I can. AND I am completely gob-smacked that the topic has had 66 pages of replies/comments and thus far 652 posts, BUT I trust that some of it will be of benefit to others who might in the future have some of the problems that I have had with this desk and the assistance given.

David

[csp]

Pulled the desk out of the Centre yesterday. Removed all of the cards and brought the desk home and with the help of my son (his last day of holidaying before he commenced his return to the USA this morning --- currently half way across the pond), I have placed the desk back into the cardboard box in which it was received 26mths ago, while I decide what to do with it. Will be reinstalling the Behringer MX8000 over the next few days --- not a patch on the d8b but it at least works !!! All that I will have to do is to work out all of the cabling, because when I initialled it, I stupidly labeled very few of the cables and many are grey figure 8 type cables, so they all look the same and they are cable tied in sizable looms.

David